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is the goodwill of providing a money losing (to TiVo) service to TiVo worth the total of lost revenue. Bottom line
A valid economic point. However this is an economic indicator of a company in it's final days. You can never grow a business with this mentality. For example, I would never, ever ever ever recommend a Tivo to anyone who does not live in New York City or L.A., or anyone who does not use Windows XP, etc. Tivo's CEO is systematically reducing the number of people who will find Tivo competitive with other products. If you think Tivo will always support YOU, I think you're naive.
Tivo will not ever be bigger than it is now, which says a lot about current (mis)management.
 

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supasta said:
Or you take a few buck that you would have spent on months of longs distance calls and get yourself a wireless adapter. There are all kinds of good things that come with a broadband connected TiVo - faster updates, connections every 15 minutes rather than once a day for updates and information, Amazon Unbox, Online Scheduling, Yahoo!, the list goes on...
Is there a howto or a link on setting up a wireless adapter?

Thanks
 

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Atomike said:
A valid economic point. However this is an economic indicator of a company in it's final days.
that is just silly and taints all the rest of the post that follows from it
 

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Originally Posted by Atomike
Tivo will not ever be bigger than it is now, which says a lot about current (mis)management.
I have been saying the same thing about their product line - it needs to be broadened substantially to support a broader base. Usually someone will come along and say there is no market for this or that, of course there are over 100 million households in the US watching TV and TiVo is only in a few million of them, how that translates into no market potential for almost anything you can think of is beyond me.

Bottom line is they really need to figure out what products and services to offer to get into a whole lot more of those households if the company is ever going to really become successful and this lack of local dial in numbers is just another example of going in the wrong direction.

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atmuscarella said:
if the company is ever going to really become successful and this lack of local dial in numbers is just another example of going in the wrong direction.

Thanks,
umm - their business model is very much involved in increasing number of TiVo DVRs on broadband. Increased dial up service at increased cost would hurt their bottom line in many ways.

and digital OTA on an S2 is just NOT a market. the S3 lite is that. I would like to see some new DVD models and on that kind of model broadening I can see a difference being made. What other types of models do you think would help?
 

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Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
umm - their business model is very much involved in increasing number of TiVo DVRs on broadband. Increased dial up service at increased cost would hurt their bottom line in many ways.

and digital OTA on an S2 is just NOT a market. the S3 lite is that. I would like to see some new DVD models and on that kind of model broadening I can see a difference being made. What other types of models do you think would help?[/B]
You are missing our point, you can't be a growth company unless you grow and you can't grow when you decide to blowing off large pieces your potential market and yes people without broadband and/or people who watch OTA TV are a significant part of the over all market of people who watch TV there is at least 20-30 million households between the 2. You also can not be a growth company when your product releases are either missing or significantly behind what they should be.

This doesn't have anything much to do with if TiVo will survive or become a successful small niche company. It has to do with the fact that in the stock market world TiVo is still consider a small cap growth stock. The statements Atomike and I made say current trends indicate that TiVo is no longer a growth company.

What I think it really comes down to is that TiVo does not want to be in the hardware business. They want to be a software company and so far that hasn't really worked out for them. Serving Direct TV in the past or serving the cable companies in the future does nothing but inhibit the Stand Alone hardware market, because to really serve the SA market they would have had to been trying to aggressively get the FCC to do its job and open up the satellite and cable STB market and fight to maximize personal use rights.

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that is just silly and taints all the rest of the post that follows from it
To you, perhaps. There is nuance in my statement. I can see how a few people could see these statements as contradictory, however they are not. As a general economic principle, you obviously don't want to have ANY customers which cost you money. However, in the big picture, you usually do, and will. Apparently ZioTivo corporation would not install any wheelchair ramps. They cost money, ya know.
I thought my point was obvious. Actually, I still do.

Have you had any economics classes? Likely too young. Ah well.
 

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Atomike said:
For example, I would never, ever ever ever recommend a Tivo to anyone who does not live in New York City or L.A.
It felt odd when TiVo did their house-warming party deal late last year and they had a map laid out with TiVo owner locations and I felt very alone when I saw my location on the map.

On a related note, when I signed up for the TiVo Meet when it was first introduced in 2000 or 2001, every month I'd get the response there would be no meet in my area because there were less than 5 respondents, probably only one. ;) I changed ISPs and let TCF know about the change, but never changed it through the Meet section.

So, yeah, I believe you're right about TiVo being a metro thing.
 

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Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
umm - their business model is very much involved in increasing number of TiVo DVRs on broadband. Increased dial up service at increased cost would hurt their bottom line in many ways.
By the way I actually agreed with this and I think it may give TiVo some options in the future if they are successful in getting their DVR prices back to a point where they are making money on the hardware. I could see DVRs offering a free basic service again but only if you were on broadband with TiVo using the profit making services being delivered through broadband to pay for the basic service. They could even continue to offer some form of rebate - just continue to make it subject to signing up for premium service.

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Atomike said:
Have you had any economics classes? Likely too young. Ah well.
it would help if your arrogance did not lead you to bad assumptions.

I well understand your grow the market argument, but DVRs have not fared well under such a plan and TiVo in specific has had large grumblings from its stakeholders about such.

TiVo has offered massive rebates on their hardware and that has not led to fast growth, they have had a lot of phone access and that has not led to large growth. Your claim that suddenly if they reoffer extensive phone coverage again that it will magically lead to growth is a common econ 101 mistake. You have to look at how growth in the market as whole is doing first and align to your market.

TiVo has obviously adopted a grow the revenue/profit margin approach and are focused on average sub price and the SAC for such. They seem to be looking toward broadband features to generate growth.
 

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Your claim that suddenly if they reoffer extensive phone coverage again that it will magically lead to growth is a common econ 101 mistake.
Again, your youth is showing. You have badly misread. To spell it out: what I'm saying is that Tivo has already done irreparable damage to it's market share by cutting these phone lines. People in these areas know Tivo doesn't care about them, and I don't think they will every get these customers back. I don't believe adding lines will add to Tivo's growth. I think the downward spiral has begun, and will continue.
The attempt to find an "econ 101 mistake" was obviously meant to boost your own credibility by making it appear that you've had Econ 101 - however it has merely confirmed my suspicions.

Let's lay it on the table: have you HAD college level Econ 101, or are you blowing smoke?
 

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Atomike said:
Let's lay it on the table: have you HAD college level Econ 101, or are you blowing smoke?
Perhaps you can lead off by enlightening the rest of us as to what the hell that has to do with the price of tea in China?

Then you can follow that up with explaining the logic behind the giant leap from a company that Tivo has no control over making a change that affects an extremely small portion of Tivo subscribers to a "downward spiral" that signifies the end of Tivo as we know it?

I'll wager you can't do both without in a post that's free of personal attacks.
 

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As mentioned in other threads on this topic, TiVo does not own a dial-up network. It contracts with other companies to provide it. However, due to a lack of demand for dial-up, these 3rd parties are eliminating low-use numbers.

TiVo's options are:
  1. Build and operate their own nationwide dial-up network.
  2. Let people use an 800 number.
  3. Encourage people to use broadband, or let them pay long distance.
The first one would cost a fortune. The second would still cost more than those subscribers bring in in revenue. So they've chosen the third option.

I live in a big city where there is still a dial-in number, but I haven't used it in years. I've been using a broadband connection.

Your options are:
  1. Pay long distance charges.
  2. Pay long distance, but use a cheap prepaid card.
  3. Use broadband.
  4. Piggyback on your own dialup internet.
 

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Atomike said:
Tivo will not ever be bigger than it is now, which says a lot about current (mis)management.
Hmmmm...seems we heard this argument in 1999, then again in 2000, then once more in 2001, and oh, wasn't it 2002 that someone said the same thing? Then there were those times in 2003 and we can never forget it being repeated in 2004 and lucky 2005, it must have been said at least a dozen times...and gosh...2006 was a big year. And here it is 2007 and this is the very first time we've heard that one! Oh wait...maybe not. :rolleyes:

Sell up and stick your money in a mattress everyone! ;)
 

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Atomike said:
Again, your youth is showing. You have badly misread. To spell it out: what I'm saying is that Tivo has already done irreparable damage to it's market share by cutting these phone lines.
I don't believe adding lines will add to Tivo's growth. I think the downward spiral has begun, and will continue.
so you say that cutting the lines has caused damage to market share, yet also claim that getting lines in these areas will not lead to growth. If I was in a business meeting and heard someone rolling these two statements around together I would think they were wasting the meeting's time and wonder how many others in the meeting thought the person a fool.

PS - I am in a lot of business meetings but as I noted above judge others in attendance by their input versus their credentials. Credentials just get you hired, which I already am.
 

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ZeoTiVo said:
so you say that cutting the lines has caused damage to market share, yet also claim that getting lines in these areas will not lead to growth. If I was in a business meeting and heard someone rolling these two statements around together I would think they were wasting the meeting's time and wonder how many others in the meeting thought the person a fool.

PS - I am in a lot of business meetings but as I noted above judge others in attaendance by their input versus their credentials. Credentials just get you hired, which I already am.
Well put. :up: Seems Atomike's another candidate for the Ignore List where he can meet many others with equally low self-esteem and insecurities. ;)
 

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richsadams said:
Well put. :up: Seems Atomike's another candidate for the Ignore List where he can meet many others with equally low self-esteem and insecurities. ;)
Think of all the cheap entertainment you're mising out on with that ignore list, though! ;)
 

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GoHokies! said:
Think of all the cheap entertainment you're mising out on with that ignore list, though! ;)
Ha! :) True enough!

I was just e-mailing with another forum member about this subject. The TiVo Forums used to be a very friendly place with lots of good back-and-forth and a real resource of good information. It was as if we were a real family of sorts. But it seems there’s an element that thrives on making others wrong or lives for pointing out mistakes. It’s sad really and a public display of their low self esteem.

I probably don’t help because I never hesitate to call someone on their B.S. Sometimes they settle down or go away, other times it just adds fuel to the fire and they end up on my personal “Ignore List”. You’d think that when a perfect stranger offers their help (whether their info is right, wrong or otherwise) that there would be some manner of appreciation and civility. It never ceases to amaze me how impolite, childish and rude some people can be. I guess their mothers just never raised them properly. Can you imagine them acting like that in a business environment? Come to think of it I guess I have seen that. I ended up firing a few of those types myself.

It seems that having forum "anonymity" gives some people a false sense of power. I suspect that these are the same people that wrap themselves in 4000lbs. of metal and drive down the road as if they were the only person on the planet. But find them in the local grocery store and they’re the nicest people (or they cower like mistreated puppies). It’s too bad really. Hopefully the arguers and complainers will find something else to do eventually.

Okay…totally OT…now back to the program already in progress. ;)
 

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Originally Posted by richsadams
It was as if we were a real family of sorts. But it seems there’s an element that thrives on making others wrong or lives for pointing out mistakes. It’s sad really and a public display of their low self esteem.
I think it actually gets worse in what I will call "opinion" threads no real problem being solved just everyone voicing their views. I am sure more than a few people have thought some (all? :D ) of my views are nuts. Some people politely tell me they think I am nuts and others can get rude about it. The funny thing is I will normal at least consider what the polite people have to say but will likely never consider anything the rude ones have to say.

Thanks,
 
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