[chris98891]

Hey all,
I really appreciate the forum and wanted to draw on some of the expertise to look over my planned setup and offer some advice that I couldn't find answered so far. I would like to hook up my Mini, but unfortunately I didn't run cat6 to most rooms.

Devices:
Roamio 4-tuner
Mini

Questions:

• TiVo offered to sell me bridges at a discount. Would I be better of getting bridges or the ECB6200? Once I go MoCa I'll have to install some dumb switches at some of the locations for PS4/PS TV/smart TV etc. The bridge would be about half the price of the actiontek - is there a huge speed difference? I don't think the Bridge is bonded.
• Does the Roamio 4-tuner require a bridge, or is any ol' moca adapter acceptable?
• Powerline adapters - especially the newer, high end ones, seems like the offer more options for expansion (each plug has multiple ethernet ports, they're consistently cheaper). Is moca that much better than a nice AV2000 powerline kit?

As much as I want to upgrade to the new Bolt with MoCa built in, TiVo unfortunately will no longer let me transfer my service to the new box (discounted rate).

Thanks in advance!

 

[ThAbtO]

How is the Roamio connected to your network? Ethernet is fine and does not need a MoCa adapter/bridge.

Minis has built-in MoCa and can use either. NO WIRELESS can be used with Mini/DVRs, but can be mixed into your network for other devices.

You do not need to modify any thing else on your network except to add a MoCa adapter (AKA Tivo Bridge). Dumb switches?

MoCa should not interfere with anything on your network, just extend it.

 

[chris98891]

Thanks!

How is the Roamio connected to your network? Ethernet is fine and does not need a MoCa adapter/bridge.

Unfortunately the Roamio only has access to coax/wifi right now. The cat6 pull would be very....messy, so I think I'll have to go with either powerline or TiVo Bridge (or other MoCa adapter)

You do not need to modify any thing else on your network except to add a MoCa adapter (AKA Tivo Bridge). Dumb switches?

Yes - just some simple unmanaged switches to take multiple ethernet devices into the MoCa adapter.

I don't think my router has MoCa built in (R7500 V2 Nighthawk X4) nor does my modem (ARRIS TM1602). So I think I'd have to buy 2 adapters - one for the Roamio and one at the modem.

 

[ThAbtO]

Powerline just barely makes the bandwidth needed by the Minis.

Roamio would need to be setup to use ethernet even though it is going through the MoCa Adapter. You would need to use splitters on the coax and POE filters to separate from the MoCA adapters.

 

[chris98891]

To ease the explanation, I've made a rudimentary and very much not to scale representation of my setup idea. A couple questions:

Is there a more efficient way even though hardwired cat6 isn't an option? Seems like a ton of patch cables and splitters vs powerline.
Are the POE filters in the right place? Do I need any more?
I have more splitters than I normally like - what should I look for in my search for a nice splitter? >2.4 ghz?

 

[ThAbtO]

The POE is to the leg of splitters leading to the MoCa adapter so there would not be any interference from the TV signals to the ethernet side.

 

[chris98891]

Thanks for all your help - this is where I'm getting confused. The cable and internet come into the house in a single line directly into a splitter. One leg of that goes to the modem and router, but if I install a PoE filter on the leg to the modem, would I not cut the signals from going back to the splitter to all the other rooms? That's why I put the PoE filter immediately on the line coming into the house, prior to the first split. Should I put in more splitters?

 

[ThAbtO]

Yes, the POE goes to the TOP of the splitter from the coax coming into the house. This is to prevent broadcast of your network activity outside of your house, except the internet access.

Additional splitters/POE is if you have MoCA adapters to your various locations needed ie: Tivo DVRs, Minis. with the POE on the leg to Moca adapter.

You do not put a POE on the modem side

 

[krkaufman]

• TiVo offered to sell me bridges at a discount. Would I be better of getting bridges or the ECB6200? Once I go MoCa I'll have to install some dumb switches at some of the locations for PS4/PS TV/smart TV etc. The bridge would be about half the price of the actiontek - is there a huge speed difference? I don't think the Bridge is bonded.

• Does the Roamio 4-tuner require a bridge, or is any ol' moca adapter acceptable?

The TiVo Bridge is a rebranded Actiontec ECB6000, so standard MoCA 2.0 (up to 400 Mbps). Unless your Internet connection is above that speed, standard MoCA 2.0 should be sufficient, unless you have some in-home application that would benefit having up to 800 Mbps between nodes.

As for the MoCA adapter at the 4-tuner Roamio, even standard MoCA 2.0 is overkill since the 4-tuner Roamio will be limited by its Fast Ethernet port to 100 Mbps, same as the Minis. (Of course the Minis can also connect via their built-in MoCA 1.1 hardware, at up to 175 Mbps.) So, any MoCA 1.1 or later adapter would work at the Roamio location, but your choice may be driven by the needs of the other devices co-located with the DVR.

edit: p.s. See also this post:

Unless you are looking for the router to establish your MoCA network, the router isn't relevant to MoCA 2.0... aside from ensuring that you're not throttling the MoCA 2.0 potential by having an underpowered router (i.e. I expect you'd want a router with Gigabit Ethernet ports, to ensure the maximum throughput across the MoCA bridge). As in the past, you could use an extended/bonded MoCA 2.0 adapter at your router to create your MoCA network, and you'd then deploy similarly spec'd MoCA adapters wherever you were looking to have the bonded MoCA 2.0-rated bandwidth (800+Mbps).

And MoCA 2.0 is backward compatible with 1.1, so your MoCA 1.1 devices (pre-BOLT MoCA-capable TiVo DVRs and TiVo Minis) will still work with a bonded MoCA 2.0 adapter, but the MoCA rules of the road still apply: two MoCA nodes will communicate with each other at the fastest spec available to BOTH nodes. So, a 4-tuner Premiere, 6-tuner Roamio or TiVo Mini (all MoCA 1.1) would communicate with a bonded MoCA 2.0 MoCA adapter using the MoCA 1.1 spec, at up to 170+Mbps. And a TiVo BOLT or BOLT+ would communicate with the bonded MoCA 2.0 adapter at 400+Mbps, the spec'd rate for standard MoCA 2.0, since the BOLTs lack the extended/bonded spec bump.

A few posts to review...

http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10705120

http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=11024568

http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=531472​

 

[fcfc2]

Thanks for all your help - this is where I'm getting confused. The cable and internet come into the house in a single line directly into a splitter. One leg of that goes to the modem and router, but if I install a PoE filter on the leg to the modem, would I not cut the signals from going back to the splitter to all the other rooms? That's why I put the PoE filter immediately on the line coming into the house, prior to the first split. Should I put in more splitters?

The diagram looks like it "should" work. If you run into difficulty with the MoCA signals, consider replacing that 6way with one 3way to use just what you need now. I would also recommend that if you are going to replace that 6way, you consider using only Verizon or Holland branded MoCA 2.0 rated splitters. Here is a source, Cable and Satellite Tools - Distributor of Tools for CATV, Satellite, Home Theater, Security, Telecom
PS. This same outfit also sells MoCA filters for a fair price.

 

[krkaufman]

What @fcfc2 said. The MoCA setup diagram looks fine, assuming the cable signal is strong enough to survive any additional splits needed to connect your MoCA adapters, where an RF pass-through on the adapter is not available or unused.

You *may* need an additional MoCA filter on the input of the tuning adapter, to protect the TA from MoCA signals. (see here for more info)

I can't speak for whether the MoCA filter on the Charter DVR is necessary, but they're cheap enough (via some sources) to make sure you have an extra on-hand should it be needed.

If you find your cable signals bordering on too low, and @fcfc2's splitter recommendations are insufficient, you can also consider a "designed for MoCA" amplifier, with a built-in MoCA filter. (e.g.)

edit: Oh, also, you'll want to cap any unused splitter or amplifier ports with a 75-ohm terminator.

consider using only Verizon or Holland branded MoCA 2.0 rated splitters

More from @fcfc2 on why, >here<.

I don't think my router has MoCa built in (R7500 V2 Nighthawk X4) nor does my modem (ARRIS TM1602).

They can't since neither device has both a connection to your coax *and* an Ethernet LAN port. So, yeah, you'll need a MoCA adapter at your modem/router location to establish your MoCA network, and another at the MoCA-less 4-tuner Roamio location to provide it with a wired network connection. As you've planned.

 

[chris98891]

Wow! Thank you all for the wonderful information. I'll get my piece list order together and try to figure out what it'll cost all-in. From what I'm calculating, it'll be around $120-150 for a couple bridges and replacing my splitters/adding filters/switches. In regards to the concern on signal strength, would going for a ECB6200 with an RF passthrough instead of a tivo bridge help me retain some signal quality? While the cost difference is substantial, I'm already not thrilled with my picture quality with Charter

Has somebody pitted a bonded moca or even just moca 2.0 setup against a new MIMO powerline setup? My final decision will come down to the consistency of a MoCa vs the cost and flexibility of a powerline kit. Unfortunately MoCa doesn't get all that much attention so I've had trouble tracking down recent comparisons.

The only other devices I'll have aside from run-of-the-mill home theater stuff would be a PS TV. I'm not sure how network intensive the remote PS4 play is.

 

[mdavej]

With digital cable, you either get a perfect picture or you don't. Unless you're actually seeing breakups and dropouts, you can't improve the picture quality with a better connections.

I don't have any specs an the Actiontec's RF out other than that it's a lowpass filter (won't pass Moca frequencies). It could replace a splitter at your Tivo, and the ethernet output could go to a switch to serve several devices. But I have no idea if the loss is greater than 3.5dB or not. I used to have the hardware to be able to test that, but I don't anymore.

 

[snerd]

With digital cable, you either get a perfect picture or you don't. Unless you're actually seeing breakups and dropouts, you can't improve the picture quality with a better connections.

I don't have any specs an the Actiontec's RF out other than that it's a lowpass filter (won't pass Moca frequencies). It could replace a splitter at your Tivo, and the ethernet output could go to a switch to serve several devices. But I have no idea if the loss is greater than 3.5dB or not. I used to have the hardware to be able to test that, but I don't anymore.

My own tests on the ECB2500 convinced me that signals to the RF out pass through a diplexer rather than a splitter, so the loss is about 1.5dB. I'm guessing that they do the same thing on the ECB6200, using an internal diplexer to grab the MoCA signals while passing the video signal out the RF port.

IMO, it isn't really worth the extra cost of the ECB6200 vs ECB6000/Bridge just for the sake of 2dB extra signal strength. Of course, the 800Mbps bandwidth is another matter.

 

[HerronScott]

Powerline just barely makes the bandwidth needed by the Minis.

Please don't post bad information!

We have the Zyxel PLA5215 Powerline adapters from a few years ago (600mbps maximum PHY rate) and they are working fine with our Mini. We're getting about 60-80mbps real world throughput between our downstairs room and the upstairs room where the Mini is located which is more than enough bandwidth (20mbps is probably a minimum). And of course now you have 1gbps and 2gbps (PHY) Powerline adapters if you feel you need more bandwidth but the Mini certainly doesn't need it (although depending on your home electrical wiring, the extra bandwidth could help with higher throughput in poor conditions).

Scott

 

[JoeKustra]

Please don't post bad information!

Mini is located which is more than enough bandwidth (20mbps is probably a minimum).
Scott

I think 20Mbps is probably the maximum needed for a Mini. It may be higher when 4k is used, but I haven seen the specs on that.

 

[HerronScott]

I think 20Mbps is probably the maximum needed for a Mini. It may be higher when 4k is used, but I haven seen the specs on that.

Right, I meant minimum throughput that you might want on the network connection versus maximum bandwidth needed for the Mini.

Scott

 

[mdavej]

Maybe powerline has improved since I last used it, but mine wasn't great. Speeds were quite good, but I had to reboot at least one adapter monthly. They would just stop working out of the blue. My Moca system has been rock solid for years with zero intervention. Night and day compared to powerline.

If you have coax and no ethernet, I can't think of any reason not to use Moca.

 

[HerronScott]

Maybe powerline has improved since I last used it, but mine wasn't great. Speeds were quite good, but I had to reboot at least one adapter monthly. They would just stop working out of the blue

I'm curious what brand/model? Other than a couple power outages, we haven't had to reboot ours in the 3 years that we've had them.

Scott

 

[mdavej]

I'm curious what brand/model? Other than a couple power outages, we haven't had to reboot ours in the 3 years that we've had them.

Scott

Actiontec