[Solon_Long]

Why in the world is the new Tivo Series 3 not supporting the 20 million or so Dish Network/Direct TV uses with it's new HD unit? If the real point is HD content then the Satellite services are way ahead of cable in their ability to provide HD content. The last that I heard both Dish and Direct are going to soon offer the capability to receive 1000 channels in HD. That means your local broadcast channels and every "cable" channel will have the bandwidth to go to HD. When if ever will cable be able to provide such a service? I simply cannot fathom TiVo's decision not to put an HD capable input on the series 3 (HDMI with HDCP or Component). IMHO this is a major/potentially fatal design flaw/omission and it can only be deliberate. What is the explanation?

 

[ZeoTiVo]

I am more upset they took the night light off the front

 

[netposer]

Why in the world is the new Tivo Series 3 not supporting the 20 million or so Dish Network/Direct TV uses with it's new HD unit? If the real point is HD content then the Satellite services are way ahead of cable in their ability to provide HD content. The last that I heard both Dish and Direct are going to soon offer the capability to receive 1000 channels in HD. That means your local broadcast channels and every "cable" channel will have the bandwidth to go to HD. When if ever will cable be able to provide such a service? I simply cannot fathom TiVo's decision not to put an HD capable input on the series 3 (HDMI with HDCP or Component). IMHO this is a major/potentially fatal design flaw/omission and it can only be deliberate. What is the explanation?

I agree. Where I live I get crappy Adelphia (read, no HD, no digital, and no Internet) or Dish/DirecTV

 

[DrStrange]

Because building a receiver for DirecTV or Dish requires their cooperation. Unlike the new CableCARD spec, the sat companies encryption is proprietary to them so you can't build a box that decrypts their signal without their ok. Think about it. If Tivo could build DirecTV DVRs on their own they'd still be making the DirecTV Tivos whether DirecTV was on board or not, wouldn't they?

The point of the CC box isn't just HD content, it's also about an integrated dual-tuner cable DVR, which, were it not for the recently-mandated cablecard spec, Tivo wouldn't be able to do for cable either without the cable companies cooperation.

 

[lajohn27]

Part of the 'logic' behind this decision may be what we don't know. The surprise announcement that hasn't been made... and may not be made at this CES.. but may be made down the road.

And part of the logic may be that TIVO has been frozen out of that market essentially so *%&$ them... hard to say at this point.

 

[classicsat]

Quite simply, they cannot produce, or more accurately, would have to partner with each provider to produce a DVR compatible with each provider, which their buisness relationships with each provider prevents that, as there is no "universal" technology like Cablecard for satellite (well there is, but the FCC has chosen not to require it, nor have the providers chosen to voluntarily make use of it).

They cannot manufacture a component or HDMI input recorder, for reasons discussed in other threads, so their only option for HD is a digital tuner DVR, and that means, from a buisness/regulatory perspective, only an ATSC/Cablecard is viable.

For satellite subscribers, TiVo will still support them with the existing Series 2 platform.

 

[Solon_Long]

The tivo S3 doesn't have to be an "integrated box" like the Directivos. All it has to do is what the existing Series 2 unit currently does - which is control a HD capable Dish or Direct TV receiver by IR or serial and accept the HD output of that receiver, record it and output the HD signal to a monitor. I don't want an integrated box. I want a true "standalone" HD capable DVR and I prefer the Tivo interface. But I guess I'll have to give replay or other competitors a look now that TiVo has climbed into bed with the cable companies.

 

[jmoak]

Why in the world is the new Tivo Series 3 not supporting the 20 million or so Dish Network/Direct TV uses with it's new HD unit? ... What is the explanation?

Maybe it's got something to do with the DVB standard's new Digital Copy Protection and Copy Management directives on preventing the recording of hd content?

Why have the inputs if you can't use 'em?

 

[dt_dc]

I simply cannot fathom TiVo's decision not to put an HD capable input on the series 3 (HDMI with HDCP or Component). IMHO this is a major/potentially fatal design flaw/omission and it can only be deliberate. What is the explanation?

The ability to record in HD from an HDMI or Component input would add at least a good $5k to the price of the box ...

Ie, you could buy a Dish HD DVR and DirectTV HD DVR and CableCard Tivo ... and it would still cost less than a DVR with uncompressed HD input (Component or HDMI).

 

[maharg18]

I simply cannot fathom TiVo's decision not to put an HD capable input on the series 3 (HDMI with HDCP or Component). IMHO this is a major/potentially fatal design flaw/omission and it can only be deliberate. What is the explanation?

It costs many thousands of dollars to record from an uncompressed signal such as HDMI/DVI and component.

As others have pointed out, the only way for them to record HD from satellite would be for them to make agreements with Dish and Directv. Not gonna happen.

 

[bkdtv]

All it has to do is what the existing Series 2 unit currently does - which is control a HD capable Dish or Direct TV receiver by IR or serial and accept the HD output of that receiver, record it and output the HD signal to a monitor. I don't want an integrated box. I want a true "standalone" HD capable DVR and I prefer the Tivo interface. But I guess I'll have to give replay or other competitors a look now that TiVo has climbed into bed with the cable companies.

The technology doesn't exist to do that yet in a mass-market consumer device. When a chipset manufacturer like Broadcom offers a low-cost solution with real-time H.264 encoding for high-definition, then you might see such devices, but those are probably three to five years off. By then, some high-def content will probably only be available through HDCP (encryption), meaning you wouldn't be able to record it with this approach.

 

[DrStrange]

The tivo S3 doesn't have to be an "integrated box" like the Directivos. All it has to do is what the existing Series 2 unit currently does

Yes it does. If it didn't DirecTV customers wouldn't have chosen DirecTivos over standalones in such overwhelming numbers. The R15 may be crap compared to the DirecTivo, but I'll wager it'll do much better among DirecTV subscribers than standalone Tivos will because it's a single box with two tuners instead of a single tuner that requires two boxes.

I don't want an integrated box. I want a true "standalone" HD capable DVR

You're in a minority. Most people don't want the extra boxes, wires, and connection hassles required to record one show at a time on a standalone DVR, never mind the four boxes required to record two shows (three if there was such a thing as a true dual-tuner standalone, but nobody makes one of those - ask yourself why).

But I guess I'll have to give replay or other competitors a look

You do know ReplayTV has never offered anything thats dual tuner OR high definition OR cable integrated OR satellite integrated, don't you? If you're willing to go the PC DVR route then maybe their upcoming ReplayPC software will do some of those things, but it won't record HD from HDMI for reasons already given in this thread. Right now threatening to go to ReplayTV over this sounds only slightly less silly than a threat to switch to VHS would.

now that TiVo has climbed into bed with the cable companies.

The CableCARD spec doesn't require "climbing into bed with cable" (though of course the Comcast Tivo did). CableCARD is an FCC mandated standard (which cable companies fought against) that any electronics company can build to without the consent of any cable company, and any company serious about being in the DVR business would be foolish not to produce a CC product.

 

[bidger]

But I guess I'll have to give replay or other competitors a look now that TiVo has climbed into bed with the cable companies.

Yeah, good luck finding that HD-Replay unit.

 

[ZeoTiVo]

Yeah, good luck finding that HD-Replay unit.

maybe he should look into the Mac Mini for Satellite oh wait

 

[Oknarf]

...If the real point is HD content then the Satellite services are way ahead of cable in their ability to provide HD content. The last that I heard both Dish and Direct are going to soon offer the capability to receive 1000 channels in HD. ...

What are you smoking? Those 1000 channels will be ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox for local markets. Cable is WAY ahead of the satellite co's when it comes to HD.

I'm on board and waiting to switch. Bring it on.

 

[Solon_Long]

What am I smoking? Let's see - currently with comcast I can get a total of 8 HD channels - and they have no plans to expand their offerings anytime soon. With Dish right now I can get about 20 HD channels and they and Direct have announced plans to provide local channels in HD and plus any other cable offerings that would like to begin broadcasting in HD. Top 100 markets X avg 7 HD locals = 700 Channels. Which leaves 300 channels for Sci-Fi, TCM, AMC, Outdoors, Spike, etc, etc, etc.

I was unaware that you cannot currently use a HDMI or Composite output to record on a PVR. It seems like a odd limitation but if the case then so be it. However, even with that limitation most of you have missed the real point. It's about availability of HD content. If you are serious about HD you are already with Dishnetwork or Direct. They are the ones who are serious about offering more HD content. Why buy a HD tivo when I am restricted to the tiny offering of HD content on Cable when Satellite will shortly have the capability to offer me almost all available HD content? And OTA reception of HD is just not feasible for huge numbers of people - especially if you live in a city - like Atlanta or Chattanooga - where the ground tends not to be flat. Not to mention that only Sat can offer channels from outside the US - like South America, Europe and Asia. Dish does huge business with it's Latino offerings. It seems like a really poor business decision to just ignore all that market.

It's really to bad. I've had a Tivo since Sept 1999. I've got 3 series 1 and a series 2. I've sold dozens of friends on the technology but this a major dissappoinment. TiVo won't be getting any of my business anytime soon if this is their decision.

 

[nhaigh]

What am I smoking? Let's see - currently with comcast I can get a total of 8 HD channels - and they have no plans to expand their offerings anytime soon. With Dish right now I can get about 20 HD channels and they and Direct have announced plans to provide local channels in HD and plus any other cable offerings that would like to begin broadcasting in HD. Top 100 markets X avg 7 HD locals = 700 Channels. Which leaves 300 channels for Sci-Fi, TCM, AMC, Outdoors, Spike, etc, etc, etc.

If you are serious about HD you are already with Dishnetwork.

Well I get the following 16 channels from my local Comcast and they insting there are more in the pipeline:

200 2Comcast Sportsnet HD
202 ESPN HD
205 Discovery HD Theater
206 INHD
207 INHD2
215 & 300 HBO HDTV
219 & 319 Cinemax HDTV
223 & 339 Showtime HDTV
227 & 369 STARZ HDTV
231 WPVI-DT (ABC-HD)
232 WCAU-DT (NBC-HD)
233 KYW-DT (CBS-HD)
234 WTXF-DT (FOX-HD)
235 WPHL-DT (WB-HD)
236 WPSG-DT (UPN-HD)
240 WHYY-DT (PBS-HD)

What is the point of boasting about 700 channels when there are 100 ABC's 100 CBS etc of which you MAY get one of each.

The Voom channels do give Dish a few more but the DVR is a POS making the service a POS as well.

 

[Solon_Long]

Well, it must be nice to live in a privileged market. I can get:

ESPN HD
Discovery HD Theater
INHD
INHD2
TNT HD
HBO HDTV
Showtime HD
CBS HD

And my local comcast says they have no plans to add any additional channels in the foreseeable future.

 

[maharg18]

TiVo won't be getting any of my business anytime soon if this is their decision.

How is it Tivo's decision? Directv dumped them for their own in-house product. Dish isn't interested in them either. Tivo's hands are tied, there's nothing they can do for the satellite market concerning HD.

 

[jmoak]

Wow... you made me look.... I had no idea my local cable co had 20 hd channels (not counting ppv and on-demand)

1- WESH (NBC) HD
2- WKMG (CBS) HD
3- WFTV (ABC) HD
4- WMFE(PBS) HD
5- WMFE-Encore HD
6- WOFL (FOX) HD
7- WCEU (PBS) HD
8- WRBW (UPN) HD
9- WKCF (WB) HD
11- HBO (HDTV)
12- Showtime (HDTV)
13- INHD
14- INHD2
15- HDNet
16- HDNet Movies
17- Universal HD
18- TNT HD
19- ESPN HD
20- Discovery HD