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Series 3
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm shocked that there's no thread yet.
Because I was sure that some would love this episode.

To be fair, I did too.
When it was on TOS and called "Mirror, Mirror".

I'll admit that I thought that DS9 milked the Mirror Universe storyline well dry.
(I will admit that Enterprise's dip into the well was pretty clever.)

So another trip to the universe of bearded Vulcans doesn't tickle my fancy that much anymore.

I picked up on the trans-universal travel hints dropped in the previous episode and when they started talking about Quantum signatures in this episode, I knew where they were going.

While it's a little fun to see Tilly try and be "evil", so far this episode is essentially a rehash of Mirror, Mirror in which our crew needs to get back home PDQ so they have to go undercover as their bad selves while they work out a way to get back home.

Also, they have to explain how no one in the future knows about Discovery's sojourn into the Mirror Universe while Kirk's was fairly well known.
(And in fact, why Kirk or Spock didn't know about it.)

I am not sure I'm buying the "Ash is a Klingon agent" storyline either.

And having sex while Lorca’s in the Agony Booth?
Cold, Burnham, Cold.
 

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Thanks for posting the thread... I'd forgotten Discovery was back this soon.

I loved the episode. Yes, it's a bit of a rehash of Mirror Mirror but there's a lot more detail here because it's the backdrop for an arc of episodes. This is some really dark TV, and I like it.

I think Culber gets replaced by his mirror self. Some of what they said on After Trek perhaps discredits that (and perhaps not), but I'm sticking by it. If anyone comes back with them from Terranland it will be him.

From what Culber said tonight (which was enough to get him killed), my guess is that Ash is Voq, surgically altered to appear human. But Tyler doesn't know that, at least not consciously. He is part of L'rell's plan to do something, but we still don't know what. We don't yet know if Voq knew what was happening to himself during the alteration, or if he was a willing participant. So in a sense he's a sleeper agent? It certainly seemed like she expected the Kahless prayer/whatever to "wake him up".

The other thought I'd had is that Ash is human, but has had Klingon (Voq's?) bone marrow/goo installed (they did say that his bones had been opened?), and somehow that makes him susceptible to L'rell's voice.

I appreciated the bits of humor thrown in (Tilly's first communication, Lorca's "chief engineer" accent) because this was a rough episode. Excited to see where this goes.

Oh, and the sex/agony booth thing... yep, that's cold. You KNOW he's in there, but you've got to get it on and create a human/Klingon/WTF child???? Super cold!
 

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The other thought I'd had is that Ash is human, but has had Klingon (Voq's?) bone marrow/goo installed (they did say that his bones had been opened?), and somehow that makes him susceptible to L'rell's voice.
The doctor told him his bones are shortened. I think there's no doubt that he's a surgically altered Klingon who has had Ash's memories overlayed over his own.
 
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And having sex while Lorca's in the Agony Booth?
Cold, Burnham, Cold.
I thought it was pretty clear that Burnham forbade them from putting Lorca in the agony booth. So she doesn't necessarily know he's in there.

Great episode. I was shocked by the Dr's death. It was fun seeing the whole of Discovery playing dress-up.
 

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I thought it was pretty clear that Burnham forbade them from putting Lorca in the agony booth. So she doesn't necessarily know he's in there.
I don't think she was communicating as clearly as she thought. She THOUGHT she forbade them from torturing her, but I think they thought she was warning them against killing him...
 

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I love the show and this was my favorite episode to date. It will be interesting to see if they end up on board the Defiant and how the interior (seen both on TOS and STE) looks in this show's modernized view of the Federation's past.
 

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Exactly how would the humans have any chance against an allied group of everyone else? I couldn't figure that out.

Much of this episode was cringe-worthy but I couldn't tell if it was intentionally so. The tone would seem to indicate that it was meant to be serious but the plot had so many silly moments that seemed like funny references to other episodes this ripped off that I couldn't tell. The whole, "In this world you are x, y, z but everything else is the same!" is such a tired trope... did they know that? I can't tell.

I don't think she was communicating as clearly as she thought. She THOUGHT she forbade them from torturing her, but I think they thought she was warning them against killing him...
Wow, I thought it was very clear that she was allowing it and told Tyler to make sure he was put into it properly with no chance of death to cover her initial resistance to it. Interesting how there are three different interpretations of that scene?
 

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I know I haven't weighed in much on this series compared to previous series that I've opined on... mostly about the shirtless scenes, but okay.

Anyway...

This series is turning out to be very dark. Darker than any Star Trek series I've watched before. For the first time, I'm finding that I have to be careful not to watch the show right before heading to sleep at night, for fear of prompting nightmares.

Not saying it's not a good and interesting show... but it's dark.
 
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The Scottish voice that Lorca took on as the chief engineer was funny.
I thought it was pretty clear that Burnham forbade them from putting Lorca in the agony booth. So she doesn't necessarily know he's in there.

Great episode. I was shocked by the Dr's death. It was fun seeing the whole of Discovery playing dress-up.
Ditto on all of the above.

I loved this ep too. They did a pretty good job overall with this mirror universe and it's so funny that Tilly made captain in this mirror universe.

That was awesome to have the agony booths. I agree that I don't think Burnham knew Lorca was in one. I wonder how long they'll stay in this evil parallel universe.

I haven't gotten around to watching the accompanying After Trek ep yet.

Did folks notice that Jonathan Frakes directed this ep, as I mentioned in the previous ep's thread?
But what happened to those bare-midriff female uniforms in the mirror universe?
Thanks for the reminder about that. YATI (Yet Another Trek Inconsistency), I guess.
This series is turning out to be very dark. Darker than any Star Trek series I've watched before.
Agreed. I don't think Gene would've approved.
 

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Seasoned gas passer
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...Great episode. I was shocked by the Dr's death...
Maybe...maybe not
From a recap on Vulture.com -- "The fact that we see Dr. Culber in flashes of next week's episode (not moving, but still) and actor Wilson Cruz just promised in an interviewthat "this is not a kill your gays story line" suggests that (a) he's definitely not dead, and (b) honestly, at this point, nobody's dead, you know?"
 

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The show hasn't been afraid to kill people off, and does make heavy use of flashbacks, so it's tough to know if he's gone or not.

I really enjoyed this episode, but like with a few of the others (which I haven't been able to comment on yet), it you start thinking it through, lots of stuff falls apart or just seems silly. It's fun watching them act out in the mirror universe (absolutely loved "Captain Killy"), but if they spend too much time in it, or if it winds up tying tightly into the main universe war plot, it'll become really distracting.
 

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If someone gets to him in time he should be fine. Snapping the neck where his was snapped wouldn't kill you immediately.

That said, I really doubt he survived and am betting on the alternate doctor theory.
 

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I had some time to kill yesterday and watched the After Trek for this episode; putting in spoiler tags even though I don't think this would be considered a spoiler:

The showrunners said that there was a decision made to not show the Mirror universe version of Culber; they wanted to keep his character pure and not tarnish him with an "evil" version. I interpret that to mean that Mirror Culber won't wind up "filling in" for main universe Culber.
 

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I had some time to kill yesterday and watched the After Trek for this episode; putting in spoiler tags even though I don't think this would be considered a spoiler:

The showrunners said that there was a decision made to not show the Mirror universe version of Culber; they wanted to keep his character pure and not tarnish him with an "evil" version. I interpret that to mean that Mirror Culber won't wind up "filling in" for main universe Culber.
I'm thinking they just don't want to show him to you yet. If they knew they were going to kill him, why create that fancy Mirror red suit for him? I smell a rat. :)
 

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Series 3
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I thought it was pretty clear that Burnham forbade them from putting Lorca in the agony booth. So she doesn't necessarily know he's in there.
I don't think she was communicating as clearly as she thought. She THOUGHT she forbade them from torturing her, but I think they thought she was warning them against killing him...
Wow, I thought it was very clear that she was allowing it and told Tyler to make sure he was put into it properly with no chance of death to cover her initial resistance to it. Interesting how there are three different interpretations of that scene?
I watched that scene again and it seemed to me that Burnham said it was ok for Lorca to go into the Booth.

Only the finest agonizer booth reserved for the treacherous Lorca.

Absolutely not.

[Connor] Captain?

What did I say to you? I do not want some overzealous guard killing this traitor
before I have the chance.
I would punish the entire ship for an error that grave.

We would never allow him the release of death.

See to it that he is installed properly here.
 

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I've suspected Tyler was Voq for a while. Ever since that little exchange where he asks what will he have to give up, and the lady Klingon says "Everything". As in everything that makes him a Klingon.

As a complete aside, I was channel flipping today and Adventures in Babysitting was on, and one of the kids is played by a very young Anthony Rapp.
 

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Series 3
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I thought "here" just referred to the brig...
The wording is a little odd for that and I'd expect Burnham to be one who tends to be precise with language.
If she didn't want Lorca touched, she should have said something along the lines of keeping Lorca in a cell until she was ready for him.

I've suspected Tyler was Voq for a while. Ever since that little exchange where he asks what will he have to give up, and the lady Klingon says "Everything". As in everything that makes him a Klingon.
The (strong) implication is that Tyler an altered Klingon (which has issues that I'm not going to go into now) but I'm not sure that it's Voq as last we saw Voq, L'Rell was helping him escape at the end of episode 4.
The next episode was when Lorca was captured and we first met Tyler so I'm not sure that he was Voq.
Also, I'm not convinced that there was enough time to make him over.

I think I know where the "Tyler is Voq" rumors are coming from though.
Per Memory Alpha:

oq was portrayed by actor Javid Iqbal.

Originally, CBS announced in December 2016 that T'Kuvma's protégé, then named "Kol", was to be played by Shazad Latif. In the final version of the series, Latif went on to portray Ash Tyler and T'Kuvma's protégé was renamed "Voq", while the name Kol was given to a leader of a rival Great House. [1]
 
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