Recording capacity is a damn joke...

6076 Views 64 Replies 18 Participants Last post by steve614, Dec 9, 2011

TiVo_Fanatic

Discussion Starter · Dec 6, 2011

Ok, so I know these are estimates but how in the F could it be this far off when I always record SD shows on basic quality ?

I have something like 77 shows on my S3 and the capacity under system info says tat I guess I should get about 303 SD hrs. Well, I just added everything up, mind you I have a full disk and an emty trash. Anyway, like was saying... I added everything up and I only come up to 151.5 hrs, so ya, WTH am I missing ?

Like I said I know that figure can be varied by recording quality but how can it be so far off ?

The only answer I can come up with is the size of the shows "file", like some of my 2hr shows might com under 2.5GB's while others might ring in at just under/over 3GB. Even then that's one hell of a gap to jump,

This leads me to my next question, I want to upgrade to the S4 and the so called space indicator. How accurate is that thing since I'm asuming it probably calculates by time ?

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rainwater

· #2 · Dec 6, 2011

There is no way to have a accurate recording capacity indicator. Like you said for analog recordings, there are several qualities you can have it encoded to. I believe in the past, TiVo always listed capacity using the lowest quality.

But when you deal with digital recordings (this doesn't just mean HD but any channel that is digital), it is up to the provider how much space it uses. Each provider has different bitrates per channel. So there is no way TiVo can tell you exactly how many hours are available.

TiVo_Fanatic

Discussion Starter · #3 · Dec 6, 2011

Ok, but what gets me is that I' at half of what TiVO "quotes" me when everything I have recorded is non HD and basic quality to maximize space. I would have expected to be upwards of 210.

aaronwt

· #4 · Dec 6, 2011

But are those channels you are recording from analog or digital? If they are digital, setting the recording level to basic does nothing.

TiVo_Fanatic

Discussion Starter · #5 · Dec 6, 2011

aaronwt said:
But are those channels you are recording from analog or digital? If they are digital, setting the recording level to basic does nothing.

It's cable fed so I guess it's all digital, not sure since I thought some of my channels were "regular / analog" non digital.

Edit: 300 HD Hours/2700 SD Hours

That's from the Elite which I want to upgrade to, goin by the current theme of things, I'd be lucky to get half of 2700 SD hrs.

HomeUser

· #6 · Dec 7, 2011

TiVo_Fanatic said:
This leads me to my next question, I want to upgrade to the S4 and the so called space indicator. How accurate is that thing since I'm asuming it probably calculates by time ?

Yes and No.
The Premiere using the HDUI menus can show the percent used at the top of "My Shows".
My Premiere XL is currently at 93% I try to keep it below 90%.

The amount free space in hours can be found in "System Information" in both HD and SD menus.
Mine currently lists.
Recording Capacity: Variable, up to 157 HD hours, or 1376 SD hours

Free Disk Space: Variable, up to 10 HD hours, or 89 SD hours.

Another way you could monitor the free space on all your networked TiVo's S2's - S4's is using an external program like David M. Cahoe's TiVo Play List running on a Windows PC.

collected from TiVo Play List said:
Total Number of Items: 253
Total Length (Recorded Shows): 204:19
Total Size (Recorded Shows): 895.1 GB
Total Size Suggestions: 53.1 GB
Available Space (including Suggestions): 64.9 GB (7.1% free)

TiVo_Fanatic

Discussion Starter · #7 · Dec 7, 2011

I use to use TPL, but any way, I just loaded it back up and here's something funny with it. 0.0 available space but in the to do list I have 2 shows waiting to record with one recording now so space is there so even TPL seems to have it's flaws.

It also says total disk space 203.6 with a total off 203.6 used so that's another flaw as well since again, I have two shows waiting to record so if the space wasnt there then there would be nothing to record.

And while were talkin about flaws, stuff in trash should be auto removed to make space for shows right ?

Well, I had to actually empty my trash just to get stuff to show up in the to do list... what gives with that ?

mattack

· #8 · Dec 7, 2011

TiVo_Fanatic said:
It's cable fed so I guess it's all digital, not sure since I thought some of my channels were "regular / analog" non digital.

If you have cablecards in your Tivo, you almost certainly do NOT have any analog channels recording. You're getting SD (i.e. non-HD) versions of the OTA channels in the lower-numbered channels, and HD versions in higher channels (e.g. 2 is SD KTVU for me, 702 is HD KTVU).

I *wish* I could still get the analog versions, optionally, even with cablecards. I do appreciate the better picture (the vast majority of the time), but for space reasons would give up the quality for some shows.

lrhorer

· #9 · Dec 7, 2011

HomeUser said:
Yes and No.
The Premiere using the HDUI menus can show the percent used at the top of "My Shows".
My Premiere XL is currently at 93% I try to keep it below 90%.

Why? There is no significant benefit to doing so. You're just wasting that space and wasting your own time trying to free it up.

lrhorer

· #10 · Dec 7, 2011

TiVo_Fanatic said:
I use to use TPL, but any way, I just loaded it back up and here's something funny with it.

There is nothing odd about it. The TiVo never runs out of space, unless the user does something pathological like sets all recordings to KUID.

TiVo_Fanatic said:
0.0 available space but in the to do list I have 2 shows waiting to record with one recording now so space is there so even TPL seems to have it's flaws.

It's not a flaw in the application. It is a flaw in the concept. Under optimum conditions, the TiVo should never have any "free" space.

TiVo_Fanatic said:
It also says total disk space 203.6 with a total off 203.6 used so that's another flaw as well since again, I have two shows waiting to record so if the space wasnt there then there would be nothing to record.

Nope. It just means that something is about to be erased. Unless you have done something rather odd or silly in your setup, the item(s) you least want are about to be deleted, but not until it is necessary. Specifically, any deleted shows will evaporate first, followed by the oldest suggestions until the last suggestion is deleted. If still more space is required, then the oldest expired scheduled recording will go away. The only time a new program will not be recorded is if there are no expired recordings.

TiVo_Fanatic said:
And while were talkin about flaws, stuff in trash should be auto removed to make space for shows right ?

Well, I had to actually empty my trash just to get stuff to show up in the to do list... what gives with that ?

That sounds like your TiVo needs to be rebooted.

HomeUser

· #11 · Dec 7, 2011

TiVo_Fanatic said:
I use to use TPL, but any way, I just loaded it back up and here's something funny with it. 0.0 available space but in the to do list I have 2 shows waiting to record with one recording now so space is there so even TPL seems to have it's flaws.

It also says total disk space 203.6 with a total off 203.6 used so that's another flaw as well since again, I have two shows waiting to record so if the space wasnt there then there would be nothing to record.

And while were talkin about flaws, stuff in trash should be auto removed to make space for shows right ?

Well, I had to actually empty my trash just to get stuff to show up in the to do list... what gives with that ?

Yes the recordings in the trash should be automatically freed when space is needed. The TiVo DVR will not remove the recordings from the deleted folder until it runs out of unused space In your case the 10 -15GB you previously permanently deleted from the deleted folder.

The general rule is It will use Free space first then the items in the deleted folder after that Suggestions when there is nothing left of these three replace requested recordings usually deleting the oldest first skipping any recordings set for "Keep Until I Delete".

When you calculate Free Space include Suggestions as free space. What TPL lists as free space is the difference between the entered/computed drive size and the total size of all recordings listed in My Shows / Now Playing.

See the TPL FAQ

How do I know what hard disk size to enter into TiVoPlayList for my machine?
As a general rule of thumb, I would enter the actual hard disk size minus about 15-18% for system overhead. If you have a stock TiVo machine and don't know the actual hard disk size, enter 29GB for a 40-hour Series 2 machine, 58GB for an 80-hour Series 2, 102GB for a 140-hour Series 2 machine, 136GB for a 180-hour Series 2 Dual Tuner, 135GB for a TiVo HD, 212GB for a Series 3, 915GB for a TiVo HD XL, or 916GB for a TiVo HD with a 1TB Western Digital DVR Expander. If you are going to err, it is most important to underestimate your disk size, never overestimate or you may find yourself unexpectedly losing recordings.

** Hint: My recommendation is to initially enter 0Gb for the machines hard disk size. Whenever the PlayList is loaded by TiVoPlayList it will always update the stored size if it finds more capacity. If you allow your TiVo to fill up and recordings start being deleted to make space for new ones then accessing TiVoPlayList should zero in on the disk capacity.

HomeUser

· #12 · Dec 7, 2011

lrhorer said:
Why? There is no significant benefit to doing so. You're just wasting that space and wasting your own time trying to free it up.

Suggestions are included as free space in the Premiers free space calculation The DVR could easily use up the 10% in a couple of days I would rather delete recordings that I have all-ready watched (I have another DVR in a different room) then some recording that I have yet to watch deleted.

lrhorer

· #13 · Dec 7, 2011

HomeUser said:
The general rule is It will use Free space first then the items in the deleted folder after that Suggestions when there is nothing left of these

Not "generally". Always. (This is a computer, remember, not a teenage girl. It's never fickle.)

HomeUser said:
three replace requested recordings usually deleting the oldest first skipping any recordings set for "Keep Until I Delete".

Almost, but not quite. It will always (not just usually) delete the oldest expired recording. No unexpired recording, KUID or otherwise, will ever be autonomously deleted.

HomeUser said:
When you calculate Free Space include Suggestions as free space. What TPL lists as free space is the difference between the entered/computed drive size and the total size of all recordings listed in My Shows / Now Playing.

There are a lot of different ways to think of "free space", and none of them is really valid. Perhaps the most fundamental definition would be the total space minus that used by unexpired recordings, but that doesn't really do much for the user, either. Really, the best practice is to just forget about it entirely and let the TiVo do its job. One does need to make sure one's drive is large enough to accommodate the family's viewing habits, but beyond that it really isn't very fruitful to worry about it. If one is really obsessive about it, however, then aside from seeking professional counseling, the best thing to do is to turn off groups and sort by date in the NPL. Press the <Jump> key to go to the bottom of the list. At the very bottom, as always, any network shares served by pyTivo, Galleon, or TiVoDesktop will show up as folders. Right above that will be any TiVos available on the network. Above that will be the Recently Deleted folder. (All of these folders exist whether groups are turned on, or not.) Any recordings in the Recently Deleted folder may be permanently erased by the TiVo at any time. Immediately above this will be the oldest suggestion. If this is a program which you consider at all important, then you probably need to address the issue, regardless of how much "free" space there is on the TiVo. OTOH, the oldest suggestion on my TiVoHD, which hosts the smallest hard drive, is from three months ago. When that Suggestion gets deleted, as it inevitably will, I will not be terribly bothered if I did not get to see it. Indeed, if I were to go nosing about to look for things to delete, that would not doubt be one of them. If I haven't had the inclination to watch it in three months, then it just is not that important to me, and any new recording is extremely likely to be more important. Knowing this already, the TiVo will delete it for me when it becomes necessary.

Moving up the list, right above the newest Suggestion will be the oldest expired recording. After all the deleted items and Suggestions The TiVo in the theater, which hosts the largest drive, has as its oldest recording program recorded on 8/16... of 2007. Again, if I happen to be so slow to watch a show that I haven't gotten around to it in 4 years, it just can't really be that important to me. If I actually do get 4 years behind in watching the stuff that is being recorded, then something needs to intervene, and the TiVo will be far better at it than I obviously am.

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lrhorer

· #14 · Dec 7, 2011

HomeUser said:
Suggestions are included as free space in the Premiers free space calculation The DVR could easily use up the 10% in a couple of days

Ten percent in two days? Your drive is too small. I definitely recommend you upgrade it. My smallest TiVo has 1T of storage. That equates to roughly 157 hours of HD recording. 10% of that would be nearly 16 hours of videos. There is no way I could watch 8 hours of TV a day on average. The number of hours the TiVo fills is not equal to the amount it records, however. It equals the amount it records minus the amount you delete. Filling up 8 hours a day in video would require (for me) recording on average at least 10 hours a day on that one TiVo, if it were my only TiVo. That's an awful lot of recordings. If it were my only TiVo, filling up the TiVo in the Theater by 10% in 2 days would require recording at least 18 hours of shows a day.

The really salient point, however, is that none of the programs that get recorded in that two days are ones that are in imminent danger of being deleted. If your system really does fill up at a rate of 10% every two days, then the only programs - outside of suggestions - that are in danger of being deleted are at least 20 days old. Double the drive size, and the oldest programs will be at least 40 days old, and probably more nearly 90 days old. Be honest, here. How many programs that have been sitting on the TiVo without being watched for something like three months are ones that really concern you?

HomeUser said:
I would rather delete recordings that I have all-ready watched (I have another DVR in a different room) then some recording that I have yet to watch deleted.

Yes, of course, but that has nothing to do with how much room is on the TiVo. Deleting a recording when you no longer want to watch it is a good practice because it helps keep things neat and it makes room for other recordings, but both of those things are true whether the TiVo is 1% full or 100% full. On the other side of the coin, there is no reason to keep a program you no longer want to watch. In 12 years of owning TiVos, once I upgraded the drive on my first TiVo, I have never bothered to worry myself over how much space there is left (it's always zero), and I have never once lost a recording I wanted due to the TiVo being full.

Think about it: depending on how large your drive is and how many shows get recorded a day on average, then if you delete every program when you are done watching it (the TiVo automatically presents you with that option), the oldest non-KUID recording on the Tivo is probably at least several months old. How likely is it that that old recording is one you really have a burning desire to watch? More to the point, how likely is it a recording several months (or even years) old is going to be of more interest to you than one which is scheduled to record tomorrow? How likely is it that if you were to decide yourself which programs to delete in order to make room for something more important, that very recording would not be near the top of your list? Any time there is a recording that is getting somewhat old, but that you really want to make sure doesn't get deleted, just set it to KUID. That will take care of the very rare case where a recording is simultaneously very old and also very important to you to be watched before it is deleted. The rest can be handled by the TiVo far better than you ever could. Perhaps some people find it irksome a computer could be better than they are at making selections, but it is the fact.

Again, the TiVo is really great at doing its job, so I don't try to micro-manage it. I just let it get on with its job, while I worry about other things.

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P42

· #15 · Dec 7, 2011

Solve the problem by installing the largest hard drive your Tivos can use. Life is too short to spent totaling up space used.

TiVo_Fanatic

Discussion Starter · #16 · Dec 7, 2011

Ok, well here's the deal. I do have both CC slots filled on my S3 so that would explain one thing. Before I read that reply, I recorded the same show with the same settings on my S2 & S3 and the S3 grabbed it as 1.52Gb's while the S2 grabbed it as 0.75Gb's.

Any way, someone commented that KUID is being stupid, well, I record everything as KUID so it's never deleted before I'm sure I have watched it. So even the items in the trash that didn't seem to get deleted were KUID. That said, regardless of the fact that the trash items were KUID, since they were in the trash they still should have been removed to record some stuff but werent. Again, I had to delete them just to make some shows show up in the to do list.

mattack said:
I *wish* I could still get the analog versions, optionally, even with cablecards. I do appreciate the better picture (the vast majority of the time), but for space reasons would give up the quality for some shows.

I only use the CC's to get the higher channels I can't normally get by having just the line hooked up. That and the HD channels when I had an HDTV that I had to get rid of some time ago.

Edit: I'm also in the process of testing something, I have a 4hr show set to keep until 6pm EST tonight. I'm gonna see if it gets removed to make space for shows tonight like Psych which is supposed to air at 10pm.

I doubt it will but we'll find out...

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steve614

· #17 · Dec 7, 2011

TiVo_Fanatic said:
Edit: I'm also in the process of testing something, I have a 4hr show set to keep until 6pm EST tonight. I'm gonna see if it gets removed to make space for shows tonight like Psych which is supposed to air at 10pm.

I doubt it will but we'll find out...

I doubt it too, unless it will be the oldest expired show not set KUID.
A better experiment would be to start undoing the KUID status of a show before you send it to the recycle bin.

IMO, your using of KUID is what is causing your problems.
If you are having to use KUID to keep shows that you still want to watch, your hard drive is too small.

If you record more than you can watch, even a larger hard drive won't help you. It would fill up eventually and you would again be in the position of having to scramble to save shows you might want to keep.
If possible, I would recommend that you transfer some shows to your computer for temp storage.

TiVo_Fanatic

Discussion Starter · #18 · Dec 7, 2011

Well, as far as KUID goes, I always use it because like I said... I want to make sure I watch something before it's deleted since, aside from movies I might want to keep I always delete stuff after watching it.

FWIW, why do you doubt that the keep until 7pm show wouldnt be removed when it technically should be to make space for new recordings, after all it's obviously not a KUID that would interfere with new stuff.

Edit: I thought KUID was removed when you delete something since if you go to recover it it's asking for how long you want to keep it. All that aside, stuff in the trash should be first to go any way right ?

steve614

· #19 · Dec 7, 2011

TiVo_Fanatic said:
FWIW, why do you doubt that the keep until 7pm show wouldnt be removed when it technically should be to make space for new recordings, after all it's obviously not a KUID that would interfere with new stuff.

It should be deleted as long as it is the oldest expired show not set KUID. My doubt stemmed from the possibility that it is not the oldest expired show.

TiVo_Fanatic said:
Edit: I thought KUID was removed when you delete something since if you go to recover it it's asking for how long you want to keep it. All that aside, stuff in the trash should be first to go any way right ?

They're supposed to be. But I thought you said earlier that you had to manually delete shows that were in the RDF in order for new shows to appear in your To Do List.
You shouldn't have to do that.

TiVo_Fanatic

Discussion Starter · #20 · Dec 7, 2011

steve614 said:
They're supposed to be. But I thought you said earlier that you had to manually delete shows that were in the RDF in order for new shows to appear in your To Do List.
You shouldn't have to do that.

I did, but it might have been a timing thing since TiVo needs to recaculate when stuff gets deleted. Like about 45 mins ago I deleted some KUID stuff like Haven, Eureka etc and now have stuff in the todo list.

As far as he 7pm show goes... im gonna fill my TiVo up today and see what happens with Burn Nortice tomorrow.

Edit: At one point someone suggested the RDF thing might mean my system needed a reset. I did do that without thinking for the hell of it about 2 hrs ago or whatever but how often does the TiVO reset itself or is it not supposed to. Never really paid attention to stuff like that because I would asume it might do that on it's own when I'm sleeping.

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