Macrovision BS?

194632 Views 476 Replies 107 Participants Last post by MighTiVo, Aug 1, 2007

PissedMonkey

Discussion Starter · Sep 10, 2005

Yesterday, for the first time, I got some crappy notification about forced deletions of shows on my TiVo. Search google for TiVo Macrovision for an idea of what I'm talking about.

Am I the only one that is completely outraged by this? I've been a faithful TiVo supporter and owner (both of their product and stock) for years, but this acquiescence seriously causes me to loose faith and respect for TiVo.

What's to stop a channel from saying that TiVo is not permitted to record ANY of their shows? Bah.

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PissedMonkey

Discussion Starter · #2 · Sep 10, 2005

and a followup to myself...

Here's an article from wired...

WIRED: TiVo has always been about empowering the viewer. Why change now?
ZINN: Macrovision changed its policy. So the question was, Do we want to have a Macrovision license with certain restrictions, or none at all? We decided that as long as the restrictions were limited to pay-per-view and video-on-demand, consumers would still have the choice. If they don't like a narrower window in which to view programming, they won't purchase it. That'll send a message to the content owners.
You're not legally required to have copy protection. Why not tell Macrovision to stuff it?
That was an option. But if there was no Macrovision license, we would run into a lot of copyright problems with things like remote access and "TiVo to Go" functionality. To innovate and give people more flexibility with broadcast content, we decided it was acceptable to allow content owners to apply protections to higher-value content.

What if the higher-value content is just the beginning? This could be a Trojan horse.
That would be a violent blow to consumer flexibility. You could end up in a situation where different products by different manufacturers would have different rules. I don't think we would go along with it.

With the cable companies in bed with the studios, TiVo could be the last line of defense for the DVR as we know it.
Sometimes I feel that way. We're aware of the danger, and the slippery slope. The danger is that DRM can tilt the balance of copyright so that ultimately there's no concept of fair use, because the content owners dictate what the rules are. But I think content owners are beginning to recognize that if you make things too restrictive, then consumers will find nonlegal ways to achieve what they want.

The "higher-value content" which had restrictions on my TiVo was a 2 year old King of the Hill for Pete's sake! I could maybe in some small way understand it if it were for some PPV boxing fight or something, but for crap like that? Bah! Bah I say!

stevel

· #3 · Sep 10, 2005

This hasn't actually been implemented yet - what makes you think TiVo forced a deletion of the program? What does your Recording History say?

jmoak

· #4 · Sep 10, 2005

for those who like to see for themselves, since the op can't post a link yet:

Has TiVo Forsaken Us?

Can you post a screen shot of that crappy notification? It would help a lot in trying to get a response.

"Questions About Macrovision Copy Protection" from Tivo's web site.

I search google for "TiVo Macrovision" and came up with quite a few hits, but most were about trying to dub dvd's to a tivo. There was very little about the "New" macrovision stuff and the ones I found would lead one to believe that this is primarily for ppv's and the like, not regular broadcast shows.

Where'd you go Monkey?? I could really use a screenshot of that notice you got.

Can you come up with one for me to see??

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PissedMonkey

Discussion Starter · #5 · Sep 10, 2005

Can't do a screenshot right now, but there are two TiVo suggested items that have been recorded, and instead of having a little round tivo smiling at me like usual, there's a little red flag next to it. When you select the show, there's a message that says, "Could be deleted any time between now and Sat 9/17 1:00 am".

When I go to "Keep Until", there is no "Keep until I delete" option. Instead there is a message that says, "Could be deleted any time between now and Sat 9/17 1:00 am. Due to policy set by the copyright holder, "Keep until I delete" is not permitted."

Bah. Bah I say!

jmoak

· #6 · Sep 10, 2005

Where are you?
What shows have the little red flags and what channels were they recorded on and when were they recorded?
and to parrot stevel:
What does your Recording History say about the deleted "King of the Hill"?

As far as the screenshot, just take a digital picture of the tv screen. It does not have to be great quality, just good enough to read.

PissedMonkey

Discussion Starter · #7 · Sep 10, 2005

Took some screenshots. Need to one more post to be able to post URLs, apparently...

PissedMonkey

Discussion Starter · #8 · Sep 10, 2005

or is it 5 posts and then URLs...

PissedMonkey

Discussion Starter · #9 · Sep 10, 2005

Here's the now playing list. (yes yes, I know, Oprah and Dharma, what can I say, it's a shared TiVo.)

Here's the program info.

Here's the keep until screen.

Here's the show details screen.

Oh yeah, Bah! Bah, I say!

stevel

· #10 · Sep 10, 2005

My guess is that your cable company improperly set the copy protection flag on that program. I did not realize the TiVo software was updated to support this yet.

jmoak

· #11 · Sep 10, 2005

Syndicated Shows?!??!?!?? (regular nights for thoes shows are on sunday)
Ok, somethin's very wrong here.....

Were both of these shows on the same channel?
Was the deleted "King of the Hill" on that channel, too?
What does your Recording History say about the deleted "King of the Hill"? Can you get a screenshot of that?

btw, Thanks for the quick screenshots so far!!

No worries, we'll get to the bottom of this!
I think stevel is on to something, although I think it might be the local broadcasting tv station.

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PissedMonkey

Discussion Starter · #12 · Sep 10, 2005

And the real joke is that I'm using attenna reception, no cable, no satellite. (Yes yes, I know it doesn't make sense. I moved to the woods, and I'm 0.3 of a mile out of Time Warner's service area. Also, trees are too dense for satellite.)

stevel said:
My guess is that your cable company improperly set the copy protection flag on that program. I did not realize the TiVo software was updated to support this yet.

jmoak

· #13 · Sep 10, 2005

That's It!!!!

All these shows are on the same channel,
Fox ch8 WGHP High Point/Winston Salem!!!

There's no way in heck that these shows can be considered "higher-value content". Either that tv station is being a huge butt or someone there has mistakenly set the flag on these programs.

Has this showed up on any other programs on this channel? Try a quick recording of anything on that channel. See what it tells ya.

PissedMonkey

Discussion Starter · #14 · Sep 10, 2005

jmoak said:
Syndicated Shows?!??!?!?? (regular nights for thoes shows are on sunday)
Ok, somethin's very wrong here.....

Were both of these shows on the same channel?
Was the deleted "King of the Hill" on that channel, too?
What does your Recording History say about the deleted "King of the Hill"? Can you get a screenshot of that?

Yes, both shows were on the same channel.

None of the shows has been deleted yet, and those are the only two that have shown that flag.

Whatever update caused this probably happened around 12:01am Saturday, right before these shows recorded, because the previous nights King of the Hill wasn't flagged.

The Recording History doens't say anything, since the show hasn't been deleted yet.

jmoak

· #15 · Sep 10, 2005

PissedMonkey said:
Yes, both shows were on the same channel.

None of the shows has been deleted yet, and those are the only two that have shown that flag.

Ah... I misunderstood. Sorry 'bout that.

PissedMonkey said:
Whatever update caused this probably happened around 12:01am Saturday, right before these shows recorded, because the previous nights King of the Hill wasn't flagged.

I don't think it was something that updated that night as this was rumored to be in the recent ver 7.2 update. I assume you've got version 7.2 on your tivo?

Has this showed up on any other programs on this channel? Try a quick recording of anything on that channel. See what it tells ya.

If they're setting the flag on every program......ewwww!

If anyone in that area is reading this thread and is on cable, try to record these shows. Let's see if the flag get's stripped when that channel is re-modulated for cable.

PissedMonkey

Discussion Starter · #16 · Sep 10, 2005

I just tried recording the local news (gah!), and it had no flag associated with it.

I'll try a few primetime shows later on tonight.

My real question, however, is why would TiVo even allow it in the first place? Having a secret workaround (either a device to remove the flag before it hit the tivo, or a remote control sequence) to bypass this annoyance like the 30 second jump just won't cut it. When somebody hears how great TiVo is, and how it's TV Your Way, and they buy one, bring it home, and find out that they're still under the thumb of the broadcasters, TiVo will be lucky if they don't just return the damn thing. Sacrificing something that's crucial to the nature of the device for the sake of toys like TiVo-2-Go (which didn't work in the 10 minutes I spent on it) is ludicrous in my mind.

Bah! Bah, I say!

jmoak said:
That's It!!!!

All these shows are on the same channel,
Fox ch8 WGHP High Point/Winston Salem!!!

There's no way in heck that these shows can be considered "higher-value content". Either that tv station is being a huge butt or someone there has mistakenly set the flag on these programs.

Has this showed up on any other programs on this channel? Try a quick recording of anything on that channel. See what it tells ya.

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PissedMonkey

Discussion Starter · #17 · Sep 10, 2005

jmoak said:
Ah... I misunderstood. Sorry 'bout that.
I don't think it was something that updated that night as this was rumored to be in the recent ver 7.2 update. I assume you've got version 7.2 on your tivo?

Yes, it is indeed 7.2.

jmoak

· #18 · Sep 10, 2005

PissedMonkey said:
I just tried recording the local news (gah!), and it had no flag associated with it.

I'll try a few primetime shows later on tonight.

It probably would not be on any local originated shows. It might not show up on the primetime shows either, as they are usually routed straight from the feed to broadcast. This is more likely being mistakenly added via the stations local storage/playout equipment, or via some vid router or conditioner.

PissedMonkey said:
My real question, however, is why would TiVo even allow it in the first place?

I can only point to the story you pointed to in your second post.

If they are doing this on purpose, my question is more to how can a broadcast tv station have the authority to set this flag on content they did not produce?

If this ability is gonna be abused like this then tivo has a pretty damn good argument to remove this.

Now that would be one hell of a marketing opportunity!!

I'd still like to know if anyone in the area has experienced this. It could conceivably be a problem with your tivo.

How old and what model is your tivo?

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rog

· #19 · Sep 10, 2005

PissedMonkey, I understand why you are pissed, but I believe there are a few misperceptions here.

First: content-protection flags did arrive with the 7.2 software. For the justification as to why TiVo added Macrovision-type protection (a.k.a. "the broadcast flag"), read the Zinn interview from Wired Magazine.

TiVo didn't intend for this to be used with syndicated King of The Hill episodes. I seriously doubt Fox or your local station did either.

There are other reported cases of the broadcast flag being accidentally triggered by local TV stations. The other case I specifically remember was determined to be caused (accidentally) by a local cable co.

Especially since your signal is O.T.A. (antenna), it is very possible that this was just a transmission glitch, which your TiVo mistakingly thought was the broadcast flag.

I suspect if you looked hard enough you could find other cases of this, but each one will involve a different local station and different programs... in other words: this is a bug.

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PissedMonkey

Discussion Starter · #20 · Sep 11, 2005

How old and what model is your tivo?

Series 2, probably close to 3 years old.

rog said:
Especially since your signal is O.T.A. (antenna), it is very possible that this was just a transmission glitch, which your TiVo mistakingly thought was the broadcast flag.

I suspect if you looked hard enough you could find other cases of this, but each one will involve a different local station and different programs... in other words: this is a bug.

I hope you're right. =)

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