[Steveknj]

I just finished watching all four episodes of this and it was fascinating. I have always been a big fan, though the prime of his career was when I was a young child, so I didn't know a whole lot about his origins and earlier career. He was very polarizing early in his career and later became a much respected public figure. I didn't realize his view on race were that extreme (mostly because of the teachings of The Nation of Islam). For example, I had no idea he was for the segregation of the races, and actually praised segregationists such as Wallace for their policies of keeping the races separate. I didn't realize that was a stance of the Nation of Islam. I did know a lot about his fighting career, especially around his post suspension career which I follow pretty closely in my tween and teen years. For example I knew how huge his first fight with Frazier was, and I remembered going to a movie theater to see a highlight package as you couldn't see that fight live except at close circuit venues and it would be some months before it would be shown on broadcast TV. I remember when Norton broke his jaw on a Saturday afternoon fight on Wide World of Sports. And of course I remember the Foreman fight and the "Thrilla In Manila". Ali also made the careers of two of the biggest boxing promoters, Bob Arum and Don King.

I bumped into Ali when I was a teen as a teen in LAX, but I was too shy to ask for an autograph. But I watched him shake so many people's hands and give autographs to everyone who asked.

 

[mr.unnatural]

Sounds interesting. I've always been a fan of Ken Burns' documentaries ever since I saw the one about the Civil War on PBS ages ago. His documentaries on Baseball and Country Music were outstanding and I learned a lot from both of them.

 

[Steveknj]

Sounds interesting. I've always been a fan of Ken Burns' documentaries ever since I saw the one about the Civil War on PBS ages ago. His documentaries on Baseball and Country Music were outstanding and I learned a lot from both of them.

I didn't see the one on Country Music as I'm not a fan, though I might go back and watch it anyway, but I highly recommend the one on Jazz that he did, and also the one on World War II, called The War.

 

[JFriday]

I didn't see the one on Country Music as I'm not a fan, though I might go back and watch it anyway, but I highly recommend the one on Jazz that he did, and also the one on World War II, called The War.

The Country music one was real good. I barely a country music fan.

 

[TonyD79]

The Country music one was real good. I barely a country music fan.

100% agree.

 

[MScottC]

The Country music one was real good. I barely a country music fan.

Found that the the most fascinating of all this docs, especially since I've never been a fan of country music.

 

[Aaron Malloy]

The Country music one was real good. I barely a country music fan.

Same here. That's when you know it's a good documentary. When they're presenting an interesting story on something you weren't initially that interested in.

 

[mr.unnatural]

The Country music one was real good. I barely a country music fan.

I gained a whole new appreciation for country music after seeing it.

 

[cheesesteak]

Eight posts in this Ken Burns Muhammed Ali documentary thread so far and seven of them are about Burns' country music documentary.

I've only watched the first episode so far because of some tivo recording complexities that left me with episodes 1 and 4 before episodes 2 and 3 recorded yesterday. I found the first episode to be absolutely fascinating. The most compelling parts had to do with how incredibly f*cked up this country was when it came to race in the 50s, 60s and 70s. The first Ali/Liston fight was going to be canceled if word got out that he was attending Muslim services. Also interesting was the fact that Elijah Muhammed wanted nothing to do with him at first. I frequently saw Black Muslims in the neighborhood when I was growing up but I hadn't thought of or seen any information about the origin of the Nation of Islam cult until this episode. This was also the first time that I remember seeing footage of the first Ali/Liston fight. He beat the crap out of Liston.

 

[Steveknj]

Eight posts in this Ken Burns Muhammed Ali documentary thread so far and seven of them are about Burns' country music documentary.

I've only watched the first episode so far because of some tivo recording complexities that left me with episodes 1 and 4 before episodes 2 and 3 recorded yesterday. I found the first episode to be absolutely fascinating. The most compelling parts had to do with how incredibly f*cked up this country was when it came to race in the 50s, 60s and 70s. The first Ali/Liston fight was going to be canceled if word got out that he was attending Muslim services. Also interesting was the fact that Elijah Muhammed wanted nothing to do with him at first. I frequently saw Black Muslims in the neighborhood when I was growing up but I hadn't thought of or seen any information about the origin of the Nation of Islam cult until this episode. This was also the first time that I remember seeing footage of the first Ali/Liston fight. He beat the crap out of Liston.

I've seen the Ali-Liston fight on ESPN. He really did and his hand speed was so quick, more like a lighter weight boxer than a heavyweight. Watching this also makes me sad to think about what happened to boxing. I'm old enough to remember when the heavyweight championship trumped every other conversation about sports for a few days around the fight. Now, most people can't even name the champion. Was just reading that someone won the championship over the weekend that I never heard of, and the person he beat, I vaguely remember hearing the name. All those years of corruption finally caught up with boxing. Nobody cares.

 

[mattack]

Haven't read the whole thread.. I've seen 3 out of 4 so far.. Just like most documentaries, I watched sped up (I think 1.7x).
I didn't realize he was SO controversial for part of his life.

Also note that at least my local PBS station is rerunning an older documentary -- Independent Lens -- The Trials of Muhammad Ali.
I had seen that before, but didn't remember that he had won on a technicality.. (it's always annoying when someone wins on a technicality then others go on about how they "won 100%" or something like that).

I've seen most of Burns' documentaries, except Civil War.. Last year, it seemed like they were rerunning some older programming (due to lack of new shows during the pandemic?).. but they never got around to rerunning the civil war. I wish they'd rerun it so I could watch it sped up.. otherwise I guess maybe some eon I'll get DVDs from the library, which I can watch only 25% sped up I think..

 

[Steveknj]

Haven't read the whole thread.. I've seen 3 out of 4 so far.. Just like most documentaries, I watched sped up (I think 1.7x).
I didn't realize he was SO controversial for part of his life.

Also note that at least my local PBS station is rerunning an older documentary -- Independent Lens -- The Trials of Muhammad Ali.
I had seen that before, but didn't remember that he had won on a technicality.. (it's always annoying when someone wins on a technicality then others go on about how they "won 100%" or something like that).

I've seen most of Burns' documentaries, except Civil War.. Last year, it seemed like they were rerunning some older programming (due to lack of new shows during the pandemic?).. but they never got around to rerunning the civil war. I wish they'd rerun it so I could watch it sped up.. otherwise I guess maybe some eon I'll get DVDs from the library, which I can watch only 25% sped up I think..

Go back and watch The Civil War! It's the granddaddy of these types of documentaries and well worth the time. I've watched bits and pieces over the years after seeing the whole thing several time.

The one thing about Ali I never realized and probably because I was too young, was that his suspension had been lifted before he won his case, and I always thought that it was reversed, he got off and then the suspensions got lifted. As a kid my uncle (the hippie) was a big Clay/Ali fan and he had a big influence over the players and teams I liked, well he and my dad. My uncle was only 11 years older than me so he was growing up, almost like a big brother to me. So he influenced a lot of what I enjoyed in sports. So while my friends mostly rooted for Frazier in the first fight, I rooted for Ali. In fact, right before this documentary dropped, my uncle sent me a reminder that this was going to be on

 

[mattack]

The one thing about Ali I never realized and probably because I was too young, was that his suspension had been lifted before he won his case, and I always thought that it was reversed, he got off and then the suspensions got lifted.

Oh, was that made clear here? I sure didn't get that either..

(and again, he only won on a technicality.. and they said they were originally going to vote against him)

 

[cheesesteak]

I finished episodes 2,3 and 4 this weekend. This was a memorable deep look into the life, warts and all, of one of the most fascinating men of the 20th century. It was extraordinary to see the evolution in America's attitude towards him from early 60s America to 2000s America and vice versa - Ali's evolving attitude towards this country. My attitude evolved towards him too. I was in the 6th grade during Ali-Frazier I and was firmly in Joe Frazier's camp. Being a kid, I probably would have liked Ali's outrageous, flamboyant style but Frazier was a local Philadelphia product like me. The conservative black suit wearing style of the Muslims was a complete turn off to kids my age. I remember for a while in the 70s my grandfather used to subscribe to Muhammad Speaks just to annoy my grandmother. He'd get a laugh at how angry she got when one of the Muslims delivered the paper.

I hadn't seen a lot of footage of pre-suspension Ali fights. My goodness, was he fast! I was surprised to see that Ali was almost as big as Liston in their first fight and definitely bigger than him in the second one. He wasn't much smaller than Foreman. It was very interesting to see the changes/deterioration in his fighting style between the pre-suspension and post-suspension periods. It was really sad to se the beginning of his deterioration around the Spinks fight and was mystifying why subsequent bouts were sanctioned.

It got a bit dusty in the room during the Olympic torch lighting footage. I had forgotten that it had been kept secret.

One thing I noticed - Ali had some pretty daughters.

 

[pdhenry]

The one thing about Ali I never realized and probably because I was too young, was that his suspension had been lifted before he won his case,

Oh, was that made clear here? I sure didn't get that either..

The Supreme Court kicked Ali's case back to the lower courts due to potentially exculpatory evidence being contained in wiretaps of Elijah Muhammed and Martin Luther King. Meanwhile, the NAACP successfully argued that New York's suspension of Ali was political - many other people convicted of crimes, some of them violent crimes, had retained their boxing licenses. In the last 20 minutes or so of Episode 2.

 

[Steveknj]

The Supreme Court kicked Ali's case back to the lower courts due to potentially exculpatory evidence being contained in wiretaps of Elijah Muhammed and Martin Luther King. Meanwhile, the NAACP successfully argued that New York's suspension of Ali was political - many other people convicted of crimes, some of them violent crimes, had retained their boxing licenses. In the last 20 minutes or so of Episode 2.

Atlanta had removed his suspension actually a few years prior to his winning his court case. Once Atlanta sanctioned his fight, other bodies (probably seeing $$$$ in their eyes) decided to lift his suspension as well. From the time he got suspended until the time he got his first fight back, a lot had changed in America, MLK had been killed, the public had turned on the Vietnam war, and there were Civil Rights riots in some of our cities. I think they saw Ali as someone who could unite the black community and show they were "doing the right thing". But mostly money, that's my take on it anyway.

 

[pdhenry]

The NAACP victory in New York State, also years before the Supreme Court overturned his draft dodging conviction, was key to that - at least according to the documentary.

Note that the first Ali-Foreman fight at MSG was before Ali's conviction was overturned.

 

[cheesesteak]

Atlanta had removed his suspension actually a few years prior to his winning his court case. Once Atlanta sanctioned his fight, other bodies (probably seeing $$$$ in their eyes) decided to lift his suspension as well. From the time he got suspended until the time he got his first fight back, a lot had changed in America, MLK had been killed, the public had turned on the Vietnam war, and there were Civil Rights riots in some of our cities. I think they saw Ali as someone who could unite the black community and show they were "doing the right thing". But mostly money, that's my take on it anyway.

I don't remember people thinking of Ali as a uniter. I think "The Man" decided it would create too much unrest in the black community in those times if they kept treating Ali harshly. People liked Ali but the Black Muslims made everybody uncomfortable, black and white.

 

[Steveknj]

The NAACP victory in New York State, also years before the Supreme Court overturned his draft dodging conviction, was key to that - at least according to the documentary.

Note that the first Ali-Foreman fight at MSG was before Ali's conviction was overturned.

The only Ali-Foreman fight that I'm aware of was in 1974 in Zaire. I assume you meant Ali-Frazier I. And yes, that's what I meant, he was fighting before the conviction was overturned which I hadn't been aware of before this documentary (though I'm sure somewhere I had heard that before and had forgotten). His first fight back though was Jerry Cooney in Atlanta, which was the first to lift his suspension, which I assume his team were working behind the scenes to make happen.

 

[Steveknj]

I don't remember people thinking of Ali as a uniter. I think "The Man" decided it would create too much unrest in the black community in those times if they kept treating Ali harshly. People liked Ali but the Black Muslims made everybody uncomfortable, black and white.

I think a lot of the reason why people liked the second iteration of Ali is because Americans inherently like a comeback/underdog story. Ali became that. I think his loss to Frazier in the first fight humbled him some as well. And lastly, he knew how to play the audience. He was the PT Barnum of his time. Nobody could promote fights like Ali and just like his partner in crime as it were, Howard Cosell, you either liked him or hated him, but you always wanted to watch and listen to him. That made him a story.