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HD to DVD - Poor Quality

4287 Views 28 Replies 7 Participants Last post by  mr.unnatural, 
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I have a good quality hd recording that I've tried to burn to a DVD using VideoReDo. The resulting DVD is nearly unwatchable. Does someone know how I can produce a quality DVD. I'm running Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit. My DVD unit is an LG Super-Multi Blue (does just about everything). Thanks. btw I have an RCN Tivo Premier stb.
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steve614
What is the file size of the HD video?

Are you trying to burn to DVD 5 (4.7 GB size) or DVD 9 (Dual layer: 8.5 GB)?

VideoReDo is going to be about the best you're going to get (IMO) as it automatically adjusts the bit rate so that the majority of the disk space is used.

ETA:
If DVD resolution is unacceptable you're going to have to look into getting a Blu-ray burner, or AVCHD to make HD DVDs that are playable on a Blu-ray player.
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mr.unnatural
I don't believe VideoReDo is set up to work with HD content for burning to DVD. Head on over to the Slysoft forums or the AVSForums for info on creating DVDs with HD content using standard recordable DVDs. A program like Ulead's DVD Movie Factory may be more inline with what you need.
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steve614 said:
If DVD resolution is unacceptable you're going to have to look into getting a Blu-ray burner, or AVCHD to make HD DVDs that are playable on a Blu-ray player.
Click to expand...
If the OP is trying to burn to recordable DVDs w/720p or 1080i resolution, one can go thru the workflow I came up with at http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7812248#post7812248.

It took me a LOT of trial and error and I've successfully archived a whole bunch of stuff. That thread is my saga... :/

However, I have a subset of content that I haven't archived (been burning to DVD-RWs as test media) that has some problems on playback, mainly stuttering that it's in the final result that wasn't in the original recording.

Those problems remain unsolved and I haven't had time to revisit whether they're user error, unresolvable or due to bugs in the tool chain. The tools (i.e. Ripbot264, x264 encoder, etc.) are all a moving target being updated all the time. I tend to not update frequently for fear of breaking a setup that's working fine. The last time I hit problem content, I did update all the tools. It didn't help.

If the content can't be transferred to a PC from TiVo due to flagging (www.tivo.com/copyprotection), you'll be out of luck w/step 1 on those shows.

At the time when I embarked on this, BD burners and blanks were more than I wanted to spend to archive my content.

IIRC, even if I took a raw decrypted .mpg transferred from my TiVo via kmttg (which was small enough to fit on a DVD +/- RW) and tried playing it w/my PS3 or Xbox 360, I believe it had problems (e.g. no sound). So, even if the target media was big enough and I didn't want to do all the stuff in my workflow, I'd be left w/something unusable.

OP: If you don't want to read that whole thread and need explanation as to why so many steps are needed, let me know.
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V7Goose
EBK09 said:
I have a good quality hd recording that I've tried to burn to a DVD using VideoReDo. The resulting DVD is nearly unwatchable. Does someone know how I can produce a quality DVD. I'm running Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit. My DVD unit is an LG Super-Multi Blue (does just about everything). Thanks. btw I have an RCN Tivo Premier stb.
Click to expand...
You certainly didn't give us much information. What is the source of the recording, what is the content, what is the format? Are you trying to change the format in any way when you write to a DVD? What options are you using in VRD? What are the particular aspects of the output that make it "nearly unwatchable"? What version of VRD are you using?

First, I'll say that VRD most probably CAN produce a good quality DVD from your source file, but there are some individual source files that just seem to throw it for a loop. The best place to get help on the specific use of VRD is the VRD site forums.

Here are just a couple of suggestions that may or may not apply, depending on the details of your source file - First, since you have a Premier, make sure you are NOT using the "fastest transfer" option in TiVo Desktop to get the source file you are starting with. Make sure the VRD output options are using double pass encoding, use smart deinterlace, do not use any clipping or expanding features until you first get good output with the original display format, and save your DVD blanks by just writing .TS or .ISO files instead of burning discs, then use something like VLC Media Player to play those output files to check PQ on each test. Also make sure you are using the most current beta version of VRD - they have made some specific changes that help with TiVo source files.
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steve614 said:
What is the file size of the HD video?

Are you trying to burn to DVD 5 (4.7 GB size) or DVD 9 (Dual layer: 8.5 GB)?

VideoReDo is going to be about the best you're going to get (IMO) as it automatically adjusts the bit rate so that the majority of the disk space is used.

ETA:
If DVD resolution is unacceptable you're going to have to look into getting a Blu-ray burner
Click to expand...
The .tivo file size is 15.8 GB. I don’t have any other file information since I went directly to DVD from .tivo through VideoReDo. VideoReDo showed the file just fitting onto a 4.7 GB disk ~4.63 GB or so if I remember correctly.

Playback of the .tivo file looks great on both the computer and the tv (tivo). I didn’t fool with any of the default settings on VideoReDo. Do I need to change anything? Do I need to save the video in some other format before I try to burn it?

I’m using 4.7 GB DVD-R media. My burner is dual-layer and Blu-ray capable, although I haven’t burned a Blu-ray disk yet. The video I’m burning will be played in a conventional DVD machine (not mine), so I really need to come up with a reasonable solution. Playing the disk on an old CRT television with a DVD player is unwatchable at this point.
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mr.unnatural said:
I don't believe VideoReDo is set up to work with HD content for burning to DVD. Head on over to the Slysoft forums or the AVSForums for info on creating DVDs with HD content using standard recordable DVDs. A program like Ulead's DVD Movie Factory may be more inline with what you need.
Click to expand...
I didn't see anything on SlySoft (Forum or Products) that obviously converted HD content to non-HD. What would the non-HD content (file type) be called? If I knew what I was looking for, it might help.
Coral DVD Movie Factory didn't show an obvious down-convert mechanism. The AVSForums seemed to point me to Roxio Creator 2011, but I didn't come away confident that it would do what I need. Any comments?
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V7Goose
EBK09 said:
The .tivo file size is 15.8 GB. I don't have any other file information since I went directly to DVD from .tivo through VideoReDo. VideoReDo showed the file just fitting onto a 4.7 GB disk ~4.63 GB or so if I remember correctly.

Playback of the .tivo file looks great on both the computer and the tv (tivo). I didn't fool with any of the default settings on VideoReDo. Do I need to change anything? Do I need to save the video in some other format before I try to burn it?

I'm using 4.7 GB DVD-R media. My burner is dual-layer and Blu-ray capable, although I haven't burned a Blu-ray disk yet. The video I'm burning will be played in a conventional DVD machine (not mine), so I really need to come up with a reasonable solution. Playing the disk on an old CRT television with a DVD player is unwatchable at this point.
Click to expand...
VRD will automatically set the output bitrate however small is needed to fit the source file onto whatever size DVD you are creating. The lower the bitrate, the worse the picture quality. If you select a dual layer DVD output, the bitrate of the re-encoded file will be close to twice as high as you get trying to write to a single layer 4.7GB DVD.

But all that is not to say that you cannot get an excellent result with a standard 4.7 GB disc - it all depends on what the content of the source file is and how long the video is.

In trying to help you, it would really be better to get more information about your source file, as I noted in my first post. To find out more about the original TiVo file, set your TiVo to native output, then display the picture info on your HD TV during playback - that will at least tell you if the file is interlaced or not. Is it 16x9 or 4x3? Lots of fast action and outdoor details, or mostly people indoors? What about the current results make you say it is unwatchable?

Also as I noted in my first post, the solution to your problem will probably be with selecting the correct output options in the VRD burn dialog. The strength of VRD is in the incredible number of internal options and settings that let you address specific issues with just about any input source - but this is also a huge weakness for any inexperienced user! Since you said you need to play this disc on a conventional TV, that certainly implies you need to do some format conversion - can't help you without knowing the details of the source file format. At a minimum, you will want to set the output format/resolution to the default for a normal DVD; that will keep you from wasting space in the output file with bits for a higher resolution than you need.
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larrs
I use tsmuxer to create a BD structure file from the HD file. Then use BDRebuilder to do the DVD. BD rebuilder is from the same guy that created DVDRebuilder. Both are excellent and easy to use programs with excellent encoders (HCEnc) for DVD.

I use VRD all the time and love it, but it is not good for making DVDs from HD material IMO. I always got a ton of shimmering and jaggies when I tried.
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V7Goose said:
You certainly didn't give us much information. What is the source of the recording, what is the content, what is the format? Are you trying to change the format in any way when you write to a DVD? What options are you using in VRD? What are the particular aspects of the output that make it "nearly unwatchable"? What version of VRD are you using?

First, I'll say that VRD most probably CAN produce a good quality DVD from your source file, but there are some individual source files that just seem to throw it for a loop. The best place to get help on the specific use of VRD is the VRD site forums.

Here are just a couple of suggestions that may or may not apply, depending on the details of your source file - First, since you have a Premier, make sure you are NOT using the "fastest transfer" option in TiVo Desktop to get the source file you are starting with. Make sure the VRD output options are using double pass encoding, use smart deinterlace, do not use any clipping or expanding features until you first get good output with the original display format, and save your DVD blanks by just writing .TS or .ISO files instead of burning discs, then use something like VLC Media Player to play those output files to check PQ on each test. Also make sure you are using the most current beta version of VRD - they have made some specific changes that help with TiVo source files.
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The recording is a network sports event with plenty of action. It's an HD Tivo recording that has been transferred to my computer using Tivo Desktop. I didn't play with any of the settings anywhere (yet). The formats are .tivo straight to burn DVD using VRD, again, default settings; no format changes initiated.

The 'unwatchable' characteristics are that everything is jittery as the camera pans slowly. But it's not only what is in motion, everything is jittery. It also looks like the resolution is really low. I'm not sure I'm describing it very well, sorry. The jittery look isn't like a shaky vcr tape, it's more like every pixel is shaking - example: a person on the video has a small pattern checkered shirt on, the shirt looks as if it's vibrating, you can barely tell it's checkered.

VideoReDo TVSuite Version 4.2.6.610

My next step it to take a look at the VRD forums and to try your suggestions. I think I need to put the original copy back onto the tivo and than download it to my computer using Tivo Desktop with the settings changed. Will this give me the source file I need? (I'm assuming that the file I have was transferred using 'fastest transfer.'
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V7Goose
EBK09 said:
The recording is a network sports event with plenty of action. It’s an HD Tivo recording that has been transferred to my computer using Tivo Desktop. I didn’t play with any of the settings anywhere (yet). The formats are .tivo straight to burn DVD using VRD, again, default settings; no format changes initiated.

The ‘unwatchable’ characteristics are that everything is jittery as the camera pans slowly. But it’s not only what is in motion, everything is jittery. It also looks like the resolution is really low. I’m not sure I’m describing it very well, sorry. The jittery look isn’t like a shaky vcr tape, it’s more like every pixel is shaking – example: a person on the video has a small pattern checkered shirt on, the shirt looks as if it’s vibrating, you can barely tell it’s checkered.

VideoReDo TVSuite Version 4.2.6.610

My next step it to take a look at the VRD forums. I wanted to answer you and say thanks for the input.

Also, from what I’ve read, AVCHD allows me to burn to a DVD and play it on a Blu-ray player but it doesn’t allow playing on a regular DVD player (please correct me on this if I’ve got it wrong). And if I understand your workflow correctly, the process doesn’t provide the ability to play the program on a regular DVD player, correct?
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First, download the VRD 619a beta.

The fact that you have a sports event means that keeping a high bit rate to deal with the motion and details will be important. Best to stick with dual layer 8.5GB discs. VRD cannot wite Blue-ray discs, so just forget that.

AVCHD format discs are only playable on Blue-ray players. In addition, although VRD can edit and save AVCHD files, it cannot create AVCHD discs. So any disc you write with VRD will be normal DVD format and will play in all players.

The description you provided of the output picture quality leads me to believe your primary problem is the deinterlace of a 1080i source file. Trying different deinterlace options in the VRD burn dialog will be important.

I am assuming that your source file is a wide-screen 16x9 format - do you want to display that as a letterbox on a standard 4x3 TV screen? If not, give me specific details and I will tell you exactly what setting in the output options to try.
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Wow, you have all given me plenty to work on! Note: I edited the end of my last reply (#10 to V7Goose); I confused two of you, having so much to look at. I'll get back here with more as soon as I can process the current material.

I still have questions about file types (what formats should I be working with) and my last question to V7Goose regarding if I can re-download to my computer, since I already deleted the original recording.
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V7Goose said:
First, download the VRD 619a beta.

The fact that you have a sports event means that keeping a high bit rate to deal with the motion and details will be important. Best to stick with dual layer 8.5GB discs. VRD cannot wite Blue-ray discs, so just forget that.

AVCHD format discs are only playable on Blue-ray players. In addition, although VRD can edit and save AVCHD files, it cannot create AVCHD discs. So any disc you write with VRD will be normal DVD format and will play in all players.

The description you provided of the output picture quality leads me to believe your primary problem is the deinterlace of a 1080i source file. Trying different deinterlace options in the VRD burn dialog will be important.

I am assuming that your source file is a wide-screen 16x9 format - do you want to display that as a letterbox on a standard 4x3 TV screen? If not, give me specific details and I will tell you exactly what setting in the output options to try.
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Yes, it's a basketball game in 16x9 My guess is that letterbox is probably best; the person that will be playing this has an older back-projection large size television.

Thanks for offering to give me the setting options; working with video is all completely new to me.
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V7Goose
EBK09 said:
Wow, you have all given me plenty to work on! Note: I edited the end of my last reply (#10 to V7Goose); I confused two of you, having so much to look at. I'll get back here with more as soon as I can process the current material.

I still have questions about file types (what formats should I be working with) and my last question to V7Goose regarding if I can re-download to my computer, since I already deleted the original recording.
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I assume you checked the recently deleted folder on the TiVo? If it is truly gone, then there may be some value in transferring it back to the TiVo and then back again to the PC. Not speaking from experience here, since I do not personally have a Premier, but from what I have read about problems with VRD, it seems that the fastest transfer option in TiVo Desktop causes the files from Premier boxes to come over as TS format, where not using that option gets you the older PS format that works well with VRD.
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V7Goose said:
I assume you checked the recently deleted folder on the TiVo? If it is truly gone, then there may be some value in transferring it back to the TiVo and then back again to the PC. Not speaking from experience here, since I do not personally have a Premier, but from what I have read about problems with VRD, it seems that the fastest transfer option in TiVo Desktop causes the files from Premier boxes to come over as TS format, where not using that option gets you the older PS format that works well with VRD.
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Is there a way to tell which format i have?
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V7Goose
EBK09 said:
Is there a way to tell which format i have?
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That info is probably available in the file properties display within VRD, but I do not know for sure since I have never needed to look for it. I'm sure you can get a quick answer to that question on the VRD forum.
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Here's the info off VRD's "program info" screen:
File: Name : C:\<path><filename.tivo>
Size : 16.216 GB
Duration : 01:56:44.28
Mux type : TiVo
Video: Encoding : MPEG2
VideoStreamID : xE0
Frame rate : 29.97 fps
Encoding size : 1920 x 1080
Aspect ratio : 16:9
Header bit rate : 18.900 Mbps
VBV buffer : 976 KBytes
Profile : [email protected]
Progressive : Prog or Int
Chroma : 4:2:0
Bit rate : 17.781 Mbps
Audio Stream: 1 (Primary) Codec : AC3
Format : DVD VOB
Channels : 5.1
Sub stream id : x80
Bit rate : 384 Kbps
Sampling rate : 48000
Sample size : 16 bits
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The file is transferring back to TIVO now; it will take a while. When it's finished, I'll transfer it back to the desktop and check that I'm not using "fastest transfer."

Just for the fun of it, I picked an HD .tivo file that I transferred to my computer (always have used the same settings for all transfers) and opened it with Windows Media Player - It plays perfectly. If I didn't have Tivo Desktop installed, would it still play? Is .tivo just another name for .mpeg2 or is there more to it?
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FYI: In VRD, under Tools>Options>Playback devices, The checkbox in Video Display Options for 'Deinterlace On' is checked as is the checkbox for 'Use Video Card YUV Acceleration.' Displayed Aspect Ratio is set to Auto.
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steve614
I think your main problem is from using a 4.7 GB DVD. You really need to burn this to a dual layer DVD to get the best quality.

Are you using the latest Tivo Desktop (2.8.2)?
If so, and you decide to re-download the program from the Tivo, make sure you have unchecked the box under "File Transfer Speed" via File -> Preferences in Tivo Desktop (see attached image). That will rule out a possible "source file" issue.

Also make sure you have the latest version of VideoReDo:

Latest version of VRD TV Suite version 4 w/H264:
http://www.videoredo.net/beta/VRDTVSH264-4-20-6-619a.exe

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