[kaszeta]

As episodes of the Foundation TV Series air, it's clear that there are quite a few differences in characterization, overall timeline, and the plot in general. I created this thread to discuss things.

Some things to note:

1. This is an entire season thread. If you aren't current in your watching, there could be spoiler material here.
2. The very nature of building a TV series off of an established book series means that much material is available from the books that can spoil the viewer, especially for those that haven't read the books at all.

There are potential spoilers. You have been warned.

 

[kaszeta]

Okay, let's talk about a few things already apparent happening so far in S1E01 and S1E02 that are pretty divergent.

1. Eto Demerzel being around at all was a bit of a surprise to me. In the books, Eto Demerzel departed early in Forward the Foundation when Hari became First Minister, and briefly returned for Hari's funeral. I think this is one way to have a long-living character that gives continuity to the show.

2. Cleon. By the books, Emperor Cleon died well before the first Foundation Book, and when Gaal Dornick arrived and was promptly arrested, that was actually Klayus I, but by that point the "Empire" had really crumbled: the real power was held by Linge Chen (who we see at the trial in the TV series). Quite the distinct change, since the Cleon I of the books was actually quite supporting of Hari Seldon in general, just not openly. But again, this is probably a major change to have a way to have another set of long-living characters for continuity.

3. Seldon actually going on the ship to Terminus. In the books, he died in his office at Streeling University. I'm not sure what they are setting up yet with this thread, however.

4. They've accelerated the entire Anacreon timeline, but that makes sense if they want to show pressure on the Empire.

Things we haven't fully been introduced to:

1. The funky floating thing on Terminus looks to be a much more elaborate version of The Vault where Hari's recordings would show up. I expect that this version of The Vault will have a more interactive, AI-like Hari Seldon instead of just playing back messages.

 

[jsmeeker]

2. Cleon. By the books, Emperor Cleon died well before the first Foundation Book, and when Gaal Dornick arrived and was promptly arrested, that was actually Klayus I, but by that point the "Empire" had really crumbled: the real power was held by Linge Chen (who we see at the trial in the TV series). Quite the distinct change, since the Cleon I of the books was actually quite supporting of Hari Seldon in general, just not openly. But again, this is probably a major change to have a way to have another set of long-living characters for continuity.

Does this also mean in the books, there is no Brother Dawn, Brother Day, and Brother Dusk all (seemingly to me) serving as Emperor at the same time?

 

[Dawghows]

Does this also mean in the books, there is no Brother Dawn, Brother Day, and Brother Dusk all (seemingly to me) serving as Emperor at the same time?

Yes, this is correct. They are not close.
EDIT: There is only one Emperor at a time in the books, and none of them are named Dawn, Day, or Dusk.

 

[kaszeta]

Yes, this is correct. They are not close.
EDIT: There is only one Emperor at a time in the books, and none of them are named Dawn, Day, or Dusk.

Yeah, Brother Dusk is Cleon XI, Brother Day is Cleon XII, and Brother Dawn is Cleon XIII. That makes the Cleon dynasty longer lasting than the books (Cleon I died about 30 years prior to the start of Foundation)

 

[jsmeeker]

very interesting.

Of course, I have no idea if this is a good change or not.. Both t he clone bit and having three at once, with the different names.

 

[Rob Helmerichs]

very interesting.

Of course, I have no idea if this is a good change or not.. Both t he clone bit and having three at once, with the different names.

Well, they all have the same name (Cleon). Day is the current emperor, Dusk is his retired predecessor, and Dawn is his heir.

I wonder what happens if a Dawn clone dies young? Do they decant a new one, and that Day has to extend his reign a few years?

I'm impressed with how good a job...amazing, really...they've done at making Terrence Mann look like an older Lee Pace.

 

[jsmeeker]

hmmm
I recall them calling each other like Brother Day or Brother Dusk and such. I guess I mis-remember..

 

[astrohip]

I'm wondering about the Gaal story line. I really don't remember much about Gaal after the (First) Foundation was established in the books.

REMINDER: Spoilers ahead, since we're discussing the books...

I wonder if this is how they establish the Second Foundation? I don't think the SF gets mentioned until the third book, a couple hundred years in the future. We have the entire Mule story to go through. It would seem far too early to bring up its existence. Yet... what about Gaal? Why?

As I recall, Hari stays on Trantor, while the newbies get sent to Terminus. He uses his time on Trantor to help keep the Prime Radiant on track, and handle any deviations. Obviously, they've thrown this away.

None of this is meant as complaints, BTW. Just trying to reconcile book events with the series. Acknowledging it's going to take major changes to make this a decent TV series.

 

[Dawghows]

hmmm
I recall them calling each other like Brother Day or Brother Dusk and such. I guess I mis-remember..

No, you're remembering the show correctly. We're just saying the Emperor's name in the books (for the time-frame we're currently seeing in the show) is Cleon.

 

[astrohip]

@jsmeeker To clarify the Empire/clone issue, since it seems confusing...

There are NO clones in the books. Just Emperors. They are born, live and die, and have kids, who become future emperors, just like Great Britain.

In the TV series, they've changed that to clones. Three at a time: Dusk, Day, Dawn. We have yet to see how they handle transition, but I'm sure we will at some point.

 

[jsmeeker]

I apologize for creating the confusion and using the wrong names

 

[Rob Helmerichs]

No, you're remembering the show correctly. We're just saying the Emperor's name in the books (for the time-frame we're currently seeing in the show) is Cleon.

Well, I haven't read the books in 40 years. I got Cleon from the show. That's what other people call them...they just refer to themselves as Dawn, Day, Dusk, presumably to avoid the confusion of three people with the same name having a conversation.

Day is clearly the Emperor. Dawn is clearly his heir-in-training. I'm assuming that Dusk is Day's retired predecessor, since he doesn't participate in actual ruling.

 

[jsmeeker]

dunno where to post news/reviews of this show.. Maybe this thread is "best"?

'Foundation' Showrunner David S. Goyer Wants 8 Seasons of the Apple TV+ Show | Decider

Eight Seasons?

oh man.. good luck with that..

 

[Stormspace]

As I recall, Seldon determined that his formula had a deviation of sorts and that there would be critical moments in the future where a nudge in the right direction would be needed as a course correction. He then set up several videos that would trigger in the vault as those times neared. I'm fairly certain that the Foundations staff was informed that these moments would happen. That the vault is a mystery and no one remembers what it is seems to be strange.

Imma have to read the books again.

 

[Craigbob]

Here's an interesting read as to how the books are remixed into the series.

Exclusive: 'Foundation' showrunner reveals how he remixed Asimov and what comes next

 

[kaszeta]

As I recall, Seldon determined that his formula had a deviation of sorts and that there would be critical moments in the future where a nudge in the right direction would be needed as a course correction. He then set up several videos that would trigger in the vault as those times neared. I'm fairly certain that the Foundations staff was informed that these moments would happen. That the vault is a mystery and no one remembers what it is seems to be strange.

Indeed, I don't remember if it was in Foundation, or Foundation and Empire, but they mentioned that the records showed that several times Seldon appeared but nobody was there to actually watch his video.

 

[Craigbob]

I keep running into cognitive dissonance about this show. This past week was a perfect example. On one hand I keep expecting Salvor to be mayor of Terminus and the city to be more than a collection of huts and repurposed ship remains. I always had the perception from the book(s) that Terminus City was much larger especially when Foundation started it was with about 100k folks being relocated to Terminus. By the time of the 1st Seldon Crisis there were about a million people living on Terminus with 150k working on the Encyclopedia Galactica. In the series there's maybe a couple of hundred eaking out a subsistence living.

Also as mentioned above, the lack of knowledge of the time vault. In the book it was well known that it existed and what it was for. In fact it's specifically pointed out that the vault was going to open on the 50th anniversary of the Founding of the Foundation.

On the other hand I'm looking forward to seeing how this imagining of the story plays out. It would have been better if they had shown some conflict or interactions with Anachreon prior to this crisis showing up as some form of back story.

I'm still not sold on the trinary depiction of the emperor. And I'm not really sure the show needs it.

 

[astrohip]

I'm still not sold on the trinary depiction of the emperor. And I'm not really sure the show needs it.

As I understand it, the purpose of the Clones was to create some character continuity. Since time is going to be flying by and jumping around, they can use the same Emperor in the series, and viewers (especially non-book readers) will have someone familiar to fall back on. In books, character continuity isn't an issue.

But I understand your "cognitive dissonance". The changes are so dramatic as to rewrite the very fabric of the story. But as long as it's well told, I'm ok.

But "well told" is still TBD.

 

[madscientist]

I kind of like it because it adds a whole other dimension to the "decay" of the Empire... the empire is so stagnant that there's not even any possibility for change or a different choice or reaction (for better OR for worse) no matter how many generations you wait.