Connecting Premiere XL4 to internet the least messy way

2244 Views 14 Replies 8 Participants Last post by lesrhorer, Oct 10, 2020

sar840t2

Discussion Starter · Sep 28, 2020 (Edited)

We just moved house and I'm hoping to reduce the complexity of my wiring rats' nest by going Wi-Fi only. I have two TiVos:

Roamio Pro
Premiere XL4 (aka Premiere Elite)

They are both packed, so I can't experiment and would like to get them running as soon as we are moved in and have Comcast service. Speaking of which, I use my own modem (so no MoCA support via Comcast).

At the old place I used Actiontec MoCA adapters - one connected to each TiVo. The only other purpose they were used for is to provide wired backhaul for my Google Wi-Fi mesh network - all my other devices are wireless.

In the new place I (will) have a 2-unit Eero mesh network with cat 6 wire between the two, so I won't need the Google Wi-Fi, and since the only reason I want internet on the TiVos is for guide updates, I really don't need anything faster than Wi-Fi to the TiVos.

So ... I'm looking for the least messy way of getting these two TiVos to talk to the internet.

The builder, in their infinite wisdom, decided that they were going "high tech" with the Eero system, a Ring doorbell, and a 'smart' doorlock, and then proceeded to use the cat 5e wiring they put in every room to wire up phone jacks (seriously???). So while I could possibly mess around with the wiring and get ethernet to each room, that's not a short-term solution.

If I use the Roamio Pro to create a MoCA network, I believe the Premiere XL4 supports MoCA, but I would still need to run ethernet to the Roamio Pro. I'd rather not.

If I configure the Roamio Pro for wireless (I believe that's possible), I need to get wireless to the Premiere XL4 - what's the best way to accomplish this? Am I limited to the official TiVo Wireless N or Wireless G adaptors, which seem to be like hen's teeth?

Thanks for any suggestions. I am so tired of rats' nests

Mike

Edit: PS - now that I have thought about this some more, can I configure the Roamio Pro to connect via Wi-Fi and create a MoCa network, and then configure the Premiere XL4 as a MoCA client? Could it really be that simple?

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kpeters59

· #2 · Sep 28, 2020

sar840t2 said:
So while I could possibly mess around with the wiring and get ethernet to each room, that's not a short-term solution.

This would take like 1 trip to Lowes and 30 minutes to wire up...

-KP

ThAbtO

· #3 · Sep 29, 2020

sar840t2 said:
can I configure the Roamio Pro to connect via Wi-Fi and create a MoCa network

No, can't have both. It only works with ethernet to create/Host MoCa.
However, you can just add a MoCa to the router site to create. Downside is the Roamio would be too slow on wifi to support the Mini. Roamio should be able to connect by MoCa with the single MoCa at the router.

Reactions: 1

snerd

· #4 · Sep 29, 2020

sar840t2 said:
At the old place I used Actiontec MoCA adapters - one connected to each TiVo. The only other purpose they were used for is to provide wired backhaul for my Google Wi-Fi mesh network - all my other devices are wireless.

Not sure why'd you'd need MoCA adapters, since Roamio Pro and Premeire XL both have MoCA support built in. But you still have the Actiontec adapters?

If I use the Roamio Pro to create a MoCA network, I believe the Premiere XL4 supports MoCA, but I would still need to run ethernet to the Roamio Pro. I'd rather not.

Why not use an Actiontec MoCA adapter next to your modem and/or router to create the MoCA network? The TiVos could even supply ethernet connections to other nearby devices by connecting a switch to the ethernet port of the TiVo, if desired.

Reactions: 1

sar840t2

Discussion Starter · #5 · Sep 29, 2020

kpeters59 said:
This would take like 1 trip to Lowes and 30 minutes to wire up...
-KP

For someone who's not terrified by the though of wiring ethernet connectors, maybe, just no spare time to learn right now. But even adding an ethernet cable to both of the TiVos goes against my new "no rats' nests" ethos.

ThAbtO said:
No, can't have both. It only works with ethernet to create/Host MoCa.
However, you can just add a MoCa to the router site to create. Downside is the Roamio would be too slow on wifi to support the Mini. Roamio should be able to connect by MoCa with the single MoCa at the router.

Dammit, I was afraid of that

I don't have a Mini and don't plan to stream on either TiVo so speed isn't an issue. Adding one MoCA adapter at the wiring closet might work (out of sight, out of mind).

snerd said:
Not sure why'd you'd need MoCA adapters, since Roamio Pro and Premeire XL both have MoCA support built in. But you still have the Actiontec adapters?

I think I originally used the Actiontec devices when I had an older TiVo that didn't support MoCA, and then I continued using them because the configuration just seemed cleaner than trying to parse the various MoCA options in the TiVo setup. Or maybe they supported higher speeds, I simply don't remember the thought process now. And yes, I still have them.

snerd said:
Why not use an Actiontec MoCA adapter next to your modem and/or router to create the MoCA network? The TiVos could even supply ethernet connections to other nearby devices by connecting a switch to the ethernet port of the TiVo, if desired.

Yeah, I think this is what I am going to need to do (although I have no other devices that want ethernet, but it would be available through the TiVos via a switch if needed).

Thanks everybody.

Mike

Reactions: 2

Teeps

· #6 · Sep 29, 2020

You have noting to lose by trying wifi. If it works, great, if not there's always hardwire.
Wireless worked well for my situation until I started streaming between my XL4 and Roamio (basic.)
All entertainment devices are now hardwired.

sar840t2

Discussion Starter · #7 · Sep 29, 2020

Teeps said:
You have noting to lose by trying wifi. If it works, great, if not there's always hardwire.
Wireless worked well for my situation until I started streaming between my XL4 and Roamio (basic.)
All entertainment devices are now hardwired.

But I can't use Wi-Fi on the Premiere XL4 (without buying a special TiVo adapter), right? So the Premiere XL4 needs MoCA, and if I use the Roamio Pro to make the MoCA network, I cannot use Wi-Fi on the Roamio Pro.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, which is quite possible.

krkaufman

· #8 · Sep 29, 2020

What @snerd and @ThAbtO said ... repurpose one of the Actiontec MoCA adapters for use at the modem/router, as your main MoCA/Ethernet bridge, and you have minimal additional wiring (none at the DVRs) supplying much better connectivity -- especially if you *ever* stream any content between the DVRs, or could ever take advantage of extending wired networking via the DVRs' Ethernet ports, as mentioned by @snerd.

Add'l notes for MoCA setup:

You'll want to make sure to get a "PoE" MoCA filter in place.

Depending on your provider and modem, another MoCA filter may be needed on the modem's coax input port, to protect the modem from MoCA signals. This is becoming more common with the rollout of DOCSIS 3.1. See the following for add'l info:

krkaufman said:
Ummm... one more twist to consider, given that you're using a DOCSIS 3.1 cable modem with an active MoCA network.

DOCSIS 3.1 and MoCA frequencies overlap...

DOCSIS 3.1 (phase 1 rollout): 5-1218 MHz
MOCA: 1125-1675 MHz

... and so some have seen an active MoCA network interfere with their modem's performance. (Theoretically the modem is struggling to interpret the MoCA signals as DOCSIS 3.1, causing failure.) The issue is known:

MoCA vs DOCSIS 3.1: Whose Spectrum Is It?

DOCSIS 3.0/3.1 Cable Modems and MOCA

Comcast Wraps Up DOCSIS 3.1 Rollout | Light Reading

The solutions/workarounds include any one of the following:

Having a dedicated coax run to the modem, to keep the DOCSIS 3.1 and MoCA signals separated. This would be preferred but is often not possible, given most homes have just a single coax run to each room/location; however, some homes with Cat*/Ethernet wiring can accomplish the isolation by relocating the main MoCA/Ethernet bridge to another location with both coax connectivity and an Ethernet connection to the router's LAN.

Installing an additional MoCA filter (e.g.) on the modem's coax input port -- distinct from the separate MoCA filter required at the home's point-of-entry/PoE -- to block any MoCA signals from reaching the modem. One consideration for this workaround is whether the cable provider is actually using DOCSIS 3.1 frequencies above 1002 MHz for the Internet service, frequencies that would be blocked by installing a MoCA filter on the modem's input port. (Typically, providers are still only using frequencies below 1002 MHz for DOCSIS 3.1, but it's the modem seeing/receiving the MoCA signals that is problematic.)

NOTE: Given that your CURRENT setup pictured includes a "PoE" MoCA filter on the incoming cable line, installing another MoCA filter on the cable modem would be the simplest workaround to avoid MoCA signals interfering with your modem. (i.e. Comcast can't be using frequencies above 1002 MHz for the DOCSIS 3.1 Internet connection, since those frequencies would be blocked by the "PoE" MoCA filter as currently installed.) The only roadblock is having a second MoCA filter available -- though you could grab one at the nearest Comcast office for free, or via Amazon.

Customizing the MoCA network settings to use a frequency (channel) above the DOCSIS 3.1 frequency range, and so avoiding aggravating the cable modem. Given the following center channel frequencies for each of a Roamio Pro's configurable MoCA 1.1 channels...

15: 1150 MHz (D1)
17: 1200 MHz (D2)
19: 1250 MHz (D3)
21: 1300 MHz (D4)
23: 1350 MHz (D5)
25: 1400 MHz (D6)
27: 1450 Mhz (D7)
29: 1500 MHz (D8)

... I'd suggest configuring your Roamio Pro to try using channel 25 (center channel 1400 MHz) when setting it up as the MoCA bridge, and then either configuring your Minis for the same channel number or "Auto."

One caveat with this approach, adjusting the MoCA frequency upward, is that attenuation/loss increases in coax components as frequencies rise, so use of higher frequencies for a MoCA network begins to increase the importance of using coax components (splitters, primarily) explicitly spec'd for MoCA.

... though depending on your MoCA adapter model, the above concerns Re: MoCA signal hitting the modem could possibly be mitigated by connecting the modem via the MoCA adapter's "TV/STB Out" pass-through port, if available -- which would also reduce cabling and improve signal strength delivered to the modem, as compared to using a splitter to connect the modem and adapter to the coax.

sar840t2 said:
I think I originally used the Actiontec devices when I had an older TiVo that didn't support MoCA, and then I continued using them because the configuration just seemed cleaner than trying to parse the various MoCA options in the TiVo setup. Or maybe they supported higher speeds, I simply don't remember the thought process now. And yes, I still have them.

The MoCA adapters would have provided a more reliable backhaul for your wireless setup, since the TiVo DVRs do have to perform the occasional reboot, even when operating normally, and, yes, they may have provided much greater throughput, as well, depending on the model of the adapters and the MoCA spec of your prior gateway.

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Reactions: 1

ThAbtO

· #9 · Sep 30, 2020

sar840t2 said:
But I can't use Wi-Fi on the Premiere XL4 (without buying a special TiVo adapter), right? So the Premiere XL4 needs MoCA, and if I use the Roamio Pro to make the MoCA network, I cannot use Wi-Fi on the Roamio Pro.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, which is quite possible.

You can use wifi and another device on MoCa or ethernet, mix and match. The only exception is with a Mini, since you don't have one, then disregard my last post about the mini.

Premiere can use the Tivo N (ethernet connection) or Tivo Wireless G (USB). MoCa capability is only built-in on the 4 tuner Premiere, 6 tuner Roamio/Bolt.

kpeters59

· #10 · Sep 30, 2020

sar840t2 said:
But even adding an ethernet cable to both of the TiVos goes against my new "no rats' nests" ethos.

Hire a professional?

-KP

sar840t2

Discussion Starter · #11 · Sep 30, 2020

Thanks everyone for the input.

For now since we still have a lot of boxes to unpack, I've gone with Plan D - the Roamio Pro is using Wi-Fi and the Premiere XL4 is in a closet

. Wife is happy and so am I.

I'll dust off this thread when I dust off the Premiere XL4, although that TiVo wasn't getting (and won't get) much use any more.

And @kpeters59 - yeah, it crossed my mind to have a pro come in and re-connect the Cat 5e for ethernet, just in case I ever need to connect some other device to Ethernet.

Reactions: 1

krkaufman

· #12 · Sep 30, 2020

sar840t2 said:
And @kpeters59 - yeah, it crossed my mind to have a pro come in and re-connect the Cat 5e for ethernet, just in case I ever need to connect some other device to Ethernet.

Not sure that's the same "professional" field he was thinking.

sar840t2

Discussion Starter · #13 · Oct 1, 2020

Ah right, yeah

shwru980r

· #14 · Oct 3, 2020

sar840t2 said:
We just moved house and I'm hoping to reduce the complexity of my wiring rats' nest by going Wi-Fi only. I have two TiVos:

Roamio Pro

Premiere XL4 (aka Premiere Elite)

They are both packed, so I can't experiment and would like to get them running as soon as we are moved in and have Comcast service. Speaking of which, I use my own modem (so no MoCA support via Comcast).

At the old place I used Actiontec MoCA adapters - one connected to each TiVo. The only other purpose they were used for is to provide wired backhaul for my Google Wi-Fi mesh network - all my other devices are wireless.

In the new place I (will) have a 2-unit Eero mesh network with cat 6 wire between the two, so I won't need the Google Wi-Fi, and since the only reason I want internet on the TiVos is for guide updates, I really don't need anything faster than Wi-Fi to the TiVos.

So ... I'm looking for the least messy way of getting these two TiVos to talk to the internet.

The builder, in their infinite wisdom, decided that they were going "high tech" with the Eero system, a Ring doorbell, and a 'smart' doorlock, and then proceeded to use the cat 5e wiring they put in every room to wire up phone jacks (seriously???). So while I could possibly mess around with the wiring and get ethernet to each room, that's not a short-term solution.

If I use the Roamio Pro to create a MoCA network, I believe the Premiere XL4 supports MoCA, but I would still need to run ethernet to the Roamio Pro. I'd rather not.

If I configure the Roamio Pro for wireless (I believe that's possible), I need to get wireless to the Premiere XL4 - what's the best way to accomplish this? Am I limited to the official TiVo Wireless N or Wireless G adaptors, which seem to be like hen's teeth?

Thanks for any suggestions. I am so tired of rats' nests

Mike

Edit: PS - now that I have thought about this some more, can I configure the Roamio Pro to connect via Wi-Fi and create a MoCa network, and then configure the Premiere XL4 as a MoCA client? Could it really be that simple?

Plenty of Tivo wireless adapters on Ebay.

lesrhorer

· #15 · Oct 10, 2020

Do yourself a huge favor and forget about WiFi or MoCa. Both are rife with headaches and stability problems. Do they work? Maybe. Sometimes. When they feel like it. Slowly, always. A single Category 5E cable does not constitute a "rat's nest". I have more than 40 Ethernet cables and 3 TenG fiber cables attached to a number of switches, and they aren't rats' nests, either.

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