Can you run two MOCA networks on the same coax?

3891 Views 27 Replies 3 Participants Last post by Hank, Oct 18, 2021

Hank

Discussion Starter · Oct 12, 2021

I'll try to make this as simple as possible.

Right now I have Cablevision coax coming into the basement.

From there:

Step 1: POLE COAX--->basement distribution block-->COAX cable to my second floor office-->Spitter-->Cable Modem
Step 2: From the cable modem, I have an two ethernet outputs ("outside network"). One ethernet goes to a VOIP box. The other output goes to a Google Mesh Network WAN port. (the Google Mesh network is what all client devices connect to, either wired or wifi)
Step 3: Ethernet LAN port out of the Google Mesh node goes to an 8-port switch ("inside network")
Step 4: One port from the switch goes to an ethernet->MOCA bridge which injects internet back into the COAX splitter.

That all works great. The actual MOCA network is only the "inside network" Google Mesh network (192.168.86.x).

On Thursday, Frontier is coming to install fiber. It's "1GB" service, so they run actual fiber into an ONT in the basement, then ethernet to their router (also in the basement). edit: There's no TV signal on the Frontier fiber, only internet.

Now if I put an Ethernet-->MOCA bridge down in the basement to pipe "outside" internet to my office on the one COAX line (disconnecting Cablevsion for now).. and then another MOCA bridge in my office into the Google Mesh network WAN port, can I re-inject the Google Mesh "inside network" network back onto the same COAX for the rest of the house? So in effect there would be two different ethernet networks on the same COAX cable -- the "outside" internet and the "inside" internet. Make sense?

If not, I'm going to have to move all my networking equipment into the basement -- which I don't want to do, or find some other way to inject the "inside" network onto the coax (keeping the single line from the basement to my office separate).

thanks.

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ThAbtO

· #2 · Oct 12, 2021

Your Google Mesh device is what we might call a router.

MoCa isn't exactly a network, rather its networking that runs through coax wiring. So, I think you can have as many on MoCa as possible, from device to router.

Hank

Discussion Starter · #3 · Oct 12, 2021

ThAbtO said:
Your Google Mesh device is what we might call a router.

MoCa isn't exactly a network, rather its networking that runs through coax wiring. So, I think you can have as many on MoCa as possible, from device to router.

Thanks for your reply.

Yeah, the Google mesh is a router.. I should have called it that.

So the MOCA is essentially the "wire" (whatever layers that is, 1/2/3?) and I can run different subnets on the same wire. Is there an exploit risk having the "outside" network on the same MOCA as the "inside" network?

ThAbtO

· #4 · Oct 12, 2021

Outside of network means out of home, usually.
It should work if you keep it in home network.

The MoCa device that is going "around" the modem and into the router is just to access the coax. There should be a MoCa filter on the coax side there to prevent internet "noise" going out of home.

Hank

Discussion Starter · #5 · Oct 12, 2021

Yeah, I mean "outside" to mean the network that the ONT+router presents to the Google mesh router (typically 192.168.1.1). I only have my VOIP and the Google Mesh WAN on that network. Everything else is "inside" the google mesh network (192.168.86.x). Also, there's no COAX leaving the house, it's fiber into the ONT then ethernet into the first router, so I can put the MOCA filter on the coax, but does it even matter in this case?

ThAbtO

· #6 · Oct 12, 2021

You don't have cable TV? That is what usually the internet comes from also. In that case, a MoCa filter is not needed, and I think you can just use that 1 MoCa adapter at the router location and still add more MoCa devices that use the same coax wiring.

I am not a moCa expert, just catch and try to pass the right info.

Hank

Discussion Starter · #7 · Oct 12, 2021

That's right. The new Frontier fiber service is internet only. No TV.

We're cutting the cord and streaming everything.

Up next, three PLS TiVos for sale.

ThAbtO

· #8 · Oct 12, 2021

Here, Fiber optic, and OTA.

krkaufman

· #9 · Oct 13, 2021

Hank said:
can I re-inject the Google Mesh "inside network" network back onto the same COAX for the rest of the house? So in effect there would be two different ethernet networks on the same COAX cable -- the "outside" internet and the "inside" internet.

The simple, practical answer is no.

The technically correct, more complicated answer is that two or more separate MoCA networks are possible - but not without affecting maximum throughput and is dependent on MoCA gear specs and other signals present on the coax. Are you using MoCA 1.1, standard or bonded 2.0 or 2.5 gear?

--

To be clear, what you're describing is configuring a cascaded router setup, with two isolated LANs separated by the Google mesh router functioning as secondary to the provider-supplied router. This setup is possible but I'm going to put a pin in detailing how, since it really isn't a good option.

Typically, if using the provider router as you've described, the Google mesh router should be converted to function as an access point only, just another wireless mesh node, linked to the LAN of the provider router, with wireless functionality disabled in the provider router. There would be a single LAN and single MoCA network, hosted from the provider router's LAN ports.

Seems like the simplest and best solution would be to do as you later suggest and move the main Google mesh router to where it could be Ethernet-connected directly to the fiber ONT, replacing the provider-supplied router entirely. You can then use MoCA, as needed, to extend the Google router's LAN. (It might make sense to move the cable modem, as well, to facilitate easily switching between provider networks, at least while both remain active.)

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Hank

Discussion Starter · #10 · Oct 13, 2021

Thank you for the detailed reply. Very helpful!

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Hank

Discussion Starter · #11 · Oct 14, 2021

Followup question. What if I take the ethernet from the ONT and go directly into the Google Mesh router? Skipping having a router as the first step from the ONT.
Is that a risk to have the Google Mesh WAN exposed to our external IP address?

krkaufman

· #12 · Oct 14, 2021

Hank said:
Followup question. What if I take the ethernet from the ONT and go directly into the Google Mesh router? Skipping having a router as the first step from the ONT.

Yes, good idea.

krkaufman said:
Seems like the simplest and best solution would be to do as you later suggest and move the main Google mesh router to where it could be Ethernet-connected directly to the fiber ONT, replacing the provider-supplied router entirely. You can then use MoCA, as needed, to extend the Google router's LAN. (It might make sense to move the cable modem, as well, to facilitate easily switching between provider networks, at least while both remain active.)

Hank said:
Is that a risk to have the Google Mesh WAN exposed to our external IP address?

No more risk than the thousands of others who are using the Google mesh product as their primary router, as you have been with your cable Internet service.

Hank

Discussion Starter · #13 · Oct 14, 2021

krkaufman said:
ng the Google mesh product as their primary router, as you have been with your cable Internet service.

In my case, the Google Mesh router was NATed behind the cable modem, it wasn't primary.

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krkaufman

· #14 · Oct 14, 2021

Hank said:
In my case, the Google Mesh router was NATed behind the cable modem, it wasn't primary.

Ah, then is wasn't a cable "modem," but a cable gateway (combo modem/router). The preferable solution would have been to either configure the Google device as an access point, or the cable gateway for bridge mode (to effectively make it a modem-only device).

What's the brand/model # of the cable "modem" (gateway)?

Hank

Discussion Starter · #15 · Oct 14, 2021 (Edited)

krkaufman said:
Ah, then is wasn't a cable "modem," but a cable gateway (combo modem/router). The preferable solution would have been to either configure the Google device as an access point, or the cable gateway for bridge mode (to effectively make it a modem-only device).

What's the brand/model # of the cable "modem" (gateway)?

Both the cable gateway and the new router from Frontier are Arris devices.

I have it working now with the new fiber (with the gear in the basement), but no matter what I try, my MOCA connection is limited to 150Mbps between the ONT-->Google router-->MOCA bridge(basement)-->COAX-->MOCA Bridge (office)-->PC. At the router, I'm getting 800Mbps. But through a single COAX line and two MOCA bridges, it just stops at 150Mbps. This is the exact same cable that ran from the basement to my office that carried the cable signal into the cable gateway, and the same coax cable that carried the injected MOCA network back into the rest of the house. So I know it's not the cable. I'm at a complete loss as to why I can't get past 150Mbps on a totally wired connection. Any ideas?

edit: I was getting 250Mbps on the old cable gateway setup. But that was
Outside Cable-->[MOCA filter]-->splitter(Basement)-->[COAX]-->Splitter(2nd floor)-->
Cable Gateway-->[Ethernet]-->(WAN)Google Mesh Network(LAN)-->[Ethernet]-->GB Switch-->**MOCA bridge-->[COAX]-->Splitter(2nd floor)-->[COAX]-->splitter(basement)

** Also, the other ports on the GB switch went to my PC, printer, other devices in the office. So the only COAX on that loop was the cable signal from the basement to the cable gateway on the 2nd floor.

Now it's this (skipping the Frontier supplied router):
ONT-->[Ethernet]-->(WAN)Google Mesh(LAN)-->[Ethernet]-->MOCA Bridge-->[COAX]-->Splitter(Basement)-->[COAX]-->MOCA Bridge(2nd floor)-->gb switch-->PC

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krkaufman

· #16 · Oct 14, 2021

Hank said:
Now it's this (skipping the Frontier supplied router):
ONT-->[Ethernet]-->(WAN)Google Mesh(LAN)-->[Ethernet]-->MOCA Bridge-->[COAX]-->Splitter(Basement)-->[COAX]-->MOCA Bridge(2nd floor)-->gb switch-->PC

How are you testing/measuring the speed?

What devices are you using as your MoCA bridge?

What do the MoCA devices report for connection quality?

If you move the remote MoCA device to the Google router location and direct-connect the two MoCA adapters via a short coax cable, what is the measured throughput (and associated MoCA stats)?

Hank

Discussion Starter · #17 · Oct 14, 2021

krkaufman said:
How are you testing/measuring the speed?

fast.com

krkaufman said:
What devices are you using as your MoCA bridge?

Actiontech wcb3000n (these guys: https://www.amazon.com/Actiontec-Dual-Band-Wireless-Extender-Ethernet/dp/B00FKTMWDE/)

krkaufman said:
What do the MoCA devices report for connection quality?

Haven't looked. What specifically am I looking for?

krkaufman said:
If you move the remote MoCA device to the Google router location and direct-connect the two MoCA adapters via a short coax cable, what is the measured throughput (and associated MoCA stats)?

I'm pretty sure I tried that setup in the basement and it was the same. I do have a Tivo Premier on the MOCA network, and I read that the "slowest" device on the network limits speed. I'll go check that and see if anything changes.

note: I see both wcb3000n are set up as "network controller". Should only one be set for network controller? And both are set for "auto" for channel.

krkaufman

· #18 · Oct 14, 2021

Hank said:
Actiontech wcb3000n (these guys: https://www.amazon.com/Actiontec-Dual-Band-Wireless-Extender-Ethernet/dp/B00FKTMWDE/)

Though the WCB3000N sports Gigabit Ethernet ports, it's just MoCA 1.1 ... so throughput between them will be maxed near the MoCA 1.1 limit ... 150-170 Mbps.

(No need for other testing. The MoCA spec of the devices is what's limiting your throughput.)

Hank

Discussion Starter · #19 · Oct 15, 2021

Thank you so much!!!
You're a genius.
I'm ordering these tonight

Limited-time deal: ScreenBeam (Previously Actiontec) Bonded MoCA 2.5 Network Adapter True 2.5 Gbps Ethernet Port for Ethernet Over Coax (2 Pack) - Fast Streaming, Gaming, Work/Learn from Home (Model: ECB7250K02) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08ML1TSXC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_dl_W981CZAVQB72JRVAG297

krkaufman

· #20 · Oct 15, 2021

That should improve your throughput. Note that you're paying a premium for the 2.5 Gbps Ethernet ports, which will only be of use if you have network gear supporting 2.5 GbE or better on each end of the MoCA link.

If you only have GbE gear, a budget path for MoCA 2.5 is available via surplus Frontier adapters sold on eBay: $36 per adapter.

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