Add CableCARD = Removed HDMI?

2504 Views 30 Replies 10 Participants Last post by Gai-jin, Oct 19, 2007

Gai-jin

Discussion Starter · Oct 17, 2007

I had my TiVoHD hooked up for the last few days, operating it without a cablecard. The TiVo is connected to the TV via HDMI. I was able to get HD locals and a few other digital channels just fine.

Tonight, I had cable cards installed, and now get a message that I can't use HDMI with my HD channels, including HD locals because my TV doesn't support HDCP DRM. If I disconnect the HDMI and connect via component, it works fine.

Why would using a cable card suddenly cause this to kick in? I didn't have guide data for HD locals before, but did have the channels. Is it something in the guide data then that tells the TiVo it can't use HD channels with a non HDCP tv?

1 - 20 of 31 Posts

ah30k

· #2 · Oct 17, 2007

HDCP sets should only be needed to view protected content.

Your cable provider is probably incorrectly setting the CCI bits on the broadcast channels to copy protected (I forget the actual codes). Use the CableCARD diagnostic screens to see if the CCI bits are set to something other than 0.

Gai-jin

Discussion Starter · #3 · Oct 17, 2007

I'll check that, I'm still fighting some other issues, so can't look at the moment. However, why would that change based on whether there is a cablecard or not? The cableco is obviously broadcasting the Locals in the clear, as I was able to view them with the tivo before the cablecards were installed. Shouldn't those same protections apply whether there's a cablecard installed or not?

Gai-jin

Discussion Starter · #4 · Oct 17, 2007

ah30k said:
HDCP sets should only be needed to view protected content.

Your cable provider is probably incorrectly setting the CCI bits on the broadcast channels to copy protected (I forget the actual codes). Use the CableCARD diagnostic screens to see if the CCI bits are set to something other than 0.

Under the 'conditional access' screen in the cablecard menus, I have a listing for CCI: 0x00

I did have quite a bit of trouble earlier with the cablecards not giving everything they should right away, but it seems to be clearing itself up. I'll do more thorough testing after teleworld paid programming is done recording. At that point, I'll try connecting the hdmi again, with the theory that it might have defaulted to assume protection until it got everything it needed to tell it there was no protection.

Does that make sense?

ah30k

· #5 · Oct 17, 2007

Gai-jin said:
Does that make sense?

I have no idea now why the HDMI would be cut off after insertion of CableCARDs. Sorry.

Joybob

· #6 · Oct 17, 2007

ah30k said:
I have no idea now why the HDMI would be cut off after insertion of CableCARDs. Sorry.

Is he hooked up Tivo -> Receiver -> Television or just Tivo -> Television?

What television is it and what cable co?

Gai-jin

Discussion Starter · #7 · Oct 17, 2007

Mediacom cable
I have Component connections through the receiver to the tv, but the TiVo is hooked to the tv directly via hdmi. (No HDMI on the receiver)

TV is a toshiba 46h84

Revolutionary

· #8 · Oct 17, 2007

Something is amiss somewhere. HDCP is built into HDMI: you can't have HDMI that doesn't support HDCP.

What is the source of error message, the TV or the Tivo? Or the CableCard interface?

If it's the Tivo, call Tivo for troubleshooting.

It is also possible that the CableCards are reporting an erroneous CCI error. I would probably start there and call the cable company.

ah30k

· #9 · Oct 17, 2007

Revolutionary said:
Something is amiss somewhere. HDCP is built into HDMI: you can't have HDMI that doesn't support HDCP.

What is the source of error message, the TV or the Tivo? Or the CableCard interface?

If it's the Tivo, call Tivo for troubleshooting.

It is also possible that the CableCards are reporting an erroneous CCI error. I would probably start there and call the cable company.

A simple adapter will allow a HDMI source to display on a DVI TV without HDCP. All non-protected content will play just fine.

Roderigo

· #10 · Oct 17, 2007

ah30k said:
HDCP sets should only be needed to view protected content.

Doesn't look like that's true for boxes that support MCards.

I just took a gander at the CableLabs spec for MCard devices:
Uni-Directional Cable Product Supporting M-Card: Multiple Profiles
Conformance Checklist: PICS
M-UDCP-PICS-I03-070510

http://www.cablelabs.com/udcp/downloads/M-Host_UNI-DIR-PICS-I03-070510.pdf

R-344: The Multi-Stream Uni-Directional Receiving Device SHALL enable HDCP encryption at all times when video is transmitted over the DVI or HDMI link.

R-345: If HDCP authentication fails, then the Multi-Stream Uni-Directional Receiving Device SHALL not transmit video over the DVI or HDMI link, excluding any alerts generated by the Uni-Directional Receiving Device informing the user of the condition.
Note: Continued transmission of a blank video field over the DVI or HDMI link for the purpose of muting video in this case is acceptable.

So, devices verified under the MCard rules always need HDCP enabled (regardless of the copy protection setting on the channel). I guess we can thank CableLabs for that one

Gai-jin

Discussion Starter · #11 · Oct 17, 2007

Revolutionary said:
Something is amiss somewhere. HDCP is built into HDMI: you can't have HDMI that doesn't support HDCP.

What is the source of error message, the TV or the Tivo? Or the CableCard interface?

If it's the Tivo, call Tivo for troubleshooting.

It is also possible that the CableCards are reporting an erroneous CCI error. I would probably start there and call the cable company.

It definitely is a Tivo error message, it appeared on one of the blue tivo banners across the bottom of the screen.

And it was connected HDMI to HDMI, with no adapters or such that might interfere.

Revolutionary

· #12 · Oct 18, 2007

ah30k said:
A simple adapter will allow a HDMI source to display on a DVI TV without HDCP. All non-protected content will play just fine.

That's fine, but it's also not what I said. I said that HDCP is built into HDMI. You can't have an HDMI-HDMI connection that doesn't support HDCP -- its not possible. That categorical classification doesn't imply anything about HDMI-DVI adapters.

Revolutionary

· #13 · Oct 18, 2007

Gai-jin said:
It definitely is a Tivo error message, it appeared on one of the blue tivo banners across the bottom of the screen.

And it was connected HDMI to HDMI, with no adapters or such that might interfere.

Call Tivo, or use component.

sinanju

· #14 · Oct 18, 2007

Revolutionary said:
That's fine, but it's also not what I said. I said that HDCP is built into HDMI. You can't have an HDMI-HDMI connection that doesn't support HDCP -- its not possible.

Sure it's possible. There are old TVs out there that implement HDMI without implementing HDCP. I'm not sure when HDCP came along, but since the TV model in question was added to the Amazon catalog back in 2004, I'd be suspicious.

Gai-jin

Discussion Starter · #15 · Oct 18, 2007

It is a TV that was originally purchased in 2005. I just inherited it from my Father-in-Law who passed away this summer.

Revolutionary

· #16 · Oct 18, 2007

sinanju said:
Sure it's possible. There are old TVs out there that implement HDMI without implementing HDCP. I'm not sure when HDCP came along, but since the TV model in question was added to the Amazon catalog back in 2004, I'd be suspicious.

You know, I had forgotten that.

HDCP compliance wasn't mandated for HDMI until late last year, but it was used in virtually all CE applications for years before that. But I don't know for sure when that practice became widespread. Perhaps there were CRT models on the market in 2004 that didn't implement HDCP? I guess it's possible.

~~But then, why would upgrading to 9.1 suddenly mess up his formerly functional connection if the monitor never supported HDCP to begin with?~~

Edit: my bad, got confused. Not 9.1, but cablecards, were added. That likely could be the culprit.

michy44

· #17 · Oct 18, 2007

I have the same issue, but it only started with 9.1. I have disconnected HDMI in favor of component until a newer software version corrects it.

- Mitch

Gai-jin

Discussion Starter · #18 · Oct 18, 2007

I still don't have 9.1, this tivo is running 8.1

Looks like that is likely the issue... apparently the tivoHD doesn't allow even unprotected digital content out on HDMI w/o HDCP, where the series3 will allow unprotected content out the HDMI, but not protected content.

http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=347b768c-43e1-4d9c-b369-f7404c6ab500&Basetitle=Hookup&articleTitle=My^DVR^is^Displaying^a^"Viewing^is^Not^Permitted"^Error

AbMagFab

· #19 · Oct 18, 2007

It's not 9.1 that screwed it up, it's the MCARD. That requires HDCP, which his TV doesn't support. Previously, HDCP wasn't required, so it wasn't an issue.

Gai-jin

Discussion Starter · #20 · Oct 18, 2007

AbMagFab said:
It's not 9.1 that screwed it up, it's the MCARD. That requires HDCP, which his TV doesn't support. Previously, HDCP wasn't required, so it wasn't an issue.

Nope, I don't have an Mcard. 2 S cards.

The issue must be simply related to tivo recognizing the channels. So long as it was picking up the channels via a scan and not mapping them out as being HD w/ guide data, it didn't care, but now that it's got data on all the channels, it won't output on the hdmi.

1 - 20 of 31 Posts

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.