You CAN submit a claim against TiVo (UK) Ltd for loss of service

Discussion in 'TiVo Series 1 - UK' started by rwtomkins, May 9, 2011.

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  1. TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

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    I agree that when we took out lifetime, for the most part the lifetime we were gambling on the lifetime of TiVo. But TiVo pulled out of the UK in 2003; everything since then has been a bonus. We've been lucky that the service continued for 8 years after the end of TiVo UK's lifetime.
     
  2. Heuer

    Heuer New Member

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    Seems to me there has been no quantifiable loss in the withdrawal of the Tribune sourced EPG. If you went to court you would have to prove you have mitigated any claimed losses as much as possible which would include taking up the offer of a free alternate EPG source. TiVo Inc could justifiably claim you have suffered no loss of service as they have done nothing to prevent owners from subscribing to the the alternate EPG source and have taken no action to inhibit the development of said source. Your only "cost" is in changing the dial code from the set-up screen and simple instructions are available; pulling HDD's and installing cachecards invalidate your warranty anyway (remember the little sticker preventing the lid opening?) so the courts will have no sympathy for the hackers.

    Basically the boys behind AltEPG have scuppered any possible success of a legal recourse against TiVo Inc or anyone else for that matter. Live with it, move on.

    P.S. If TiVo Inc are reading this they may consider making a suitable open donation to AltEPG to make the chances of a legal challenge even more untenable ;)
     
  3. orangeboy

    orangeboy yes, I AM orangeboy!

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    Then you should not have agreed to the TOS, and not purchased the box.
     
  4. rwtomkins

    rwtomkins New Member

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    That's right, I disagree with your thinking but we could debate this for ever and life's too short. Hopefully a court will decide.
     
  5. rwtomkins

    rwtomkins New Member

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    OK, here's an update, not of much interest I'm afraid but I did promise to post developments. Before filing a claim against Tivo (UK) Ltd I felt I had to write to them to give them the opportunity to settle voluntarily. Needless to say they've simply ignored my letter, which was sent by recorded delivery and wasn't returned, so today I filed my claim with Money Claim Online which took 15-20 minutes and cost a small sum of money which I'll get back if I win. The defendant has two weeks from the date the papers are served to say whether they want to contest the claim so the next update will probably be in about two weeks' time.

    All those interested in making a claim, please do check back here even after June 1 to see what happens or you can PM me if you like and I'll try to get a mailing list organised.
     
  6. Jun 9, 2011 #106 of 677
    rwtomkins

    rwtomkins New Member

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    Just to keep you in the picture, I had a letter from the court last week letting me know that the claim had been issued and that the defendant, TiVo (UK) Ltd, had until the 15th of June to reply. That's Wednesday of next week, as I write.

    The letter said the defendant had the following options:

    1. Pay the claim.

    2. File an acknowledgement of service, which would give the defendant another two weeks "to file a defence or contest the court's jurisdiction."

    3. Dispute the whole claim and file a defence. "The court will send you a copy of the defence."

    4. Admit that the all the money is owed. "The defendant will send you a completed admission form and you may ask the court to enter judgment."

    5. Admit that only part of the claim is owed. "The court will send you a copy of the reply form and you will have to decide what to do next."

    6. Not reply at all. "You may ask the court to enter judgment."

    To pass the time until Wednesday, would anyone like to predict what TiVo will do?

    Obviously you're at a disadvantage because you don't know what I've claimed (and I'm not going to tell you). But it's only a game!

    Edit: I've just noticed I wrote 15th of July instead of 15th of June and have corrected this. Sorry.
     
  7. Jun 9, 2011 #107 of 677
    Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    I'm tempted to believe that they won't enter a defence and the court will simply award judgment in your favour although they must be worried about the precedent angle of 1,000 other Tivo owners then making a claim on the same basis as yours.

    But I still think they will just ignore it because it hasn't suited them up to now to either explain or further justify their actions in terminating UK Series 1 Service. That is that they have not responded to any letters to senior management and turning up in court would force them to explain their actions.

    In days gone by they might have sent a Sky lawyer to represent them but I can't see that happening now for fairly obvious political reasons.
     
  8. Jun 9, 2011 #108 of 677
    TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

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    I'd go for 6. I don';t think that means it goes in your favour though; it's still up to the court to decide.
     
  9. Jun 9, 2011 #109 of 677
    spitfires

    spitfires wassock

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    And of course even if you win judgement you've still got to then actually get the money out of them (and I recall their companies house accounts said their bank balance was £0).
     
  10. Jun 9, 2011 #110 of 677
    steveroe

    steveroe Must do some work...

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    July or June?
     
  11. Jun 9, 2011 #111 of 677
    sjp

    sjp Active Member

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    i hope it's june, if not i'll be a year older sooner than i care :)
     
  12. Jun 9, 2011 #112 of 677
    orangeboy

    orangeboy yes, I AM orangeboy!

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    3. Dispute the whole claim and file a defence, citing: "TiVo also reserves the right to discontinue the TiVo service altogether at any time in its discretion."
     
  13. Jun 9, 2011 #113 of 677
    rwtomkins

    rwtomkins New Member

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    Very sorry, I meant June, not July, and have now corrected this.

    I would bet on 6. too for the reasons Pete77 cited. The problem is, they'd then have to pay up and that could even mean that the company would not be dormant any more because they'd have to start flushing some cash through it. It's true that they could just ignore an order to pay up but the judgment would be entered against TiVo in the public records that are checked for example by credit rating agencies and things would look even worse if they then failed to pay.

    I think they may be in a bit of a quandary because none of the options looks attractive to a company that seems to want to avoid at all costs being called to account for its actions. But we'll see - perhaps they'll pull a surprise out of the hat. Are teams of incredibly expensive lawyers working round the clock to come up with a solution? Or is TiVo just crossing its fingers and hoping I'll drop dead by next Wednesday?
     
  14. Jun 9, 2011 #114 of 677
    Steve_K

    Steve_K Member

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    I so hope it'll be option 6 and that makes the case simpler. You may never see your money but you might then be able to get TiVo UK declared bankrupt. That might cause TiVo Inc some serious difficulties with credit rating, freedom of execs to travel in Europe and getting monies from Virgin.

    All power to you pursuing your case.
     
  15. Jun 9, 2011 #115 of 677
    TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

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    If they want to respond they can just copy and paste from some of the threads here! My guess is they'll gamble on silence and the court thinkinging you're pushing their luck.

    If they do respond I suspect their strongest argument is "We promised service for the lifetime of the hardware, you artifcially extended the lifetime of your TiVo in direct breach of the clause in the SA. Your TiVo is therefore not on its original lifetime and so we owe you nothing".
     
  16. LarryDavid

    LarryDavid New Member

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    Or was the letter signed for by a security guard at an address with no TiVo staff actually there and they are still, in fact, blissfully unaware.
     
  17. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    I very much doubt they are blissfully unaware of it in view of the existence of this discussion thread. Also they would have periodic stuff from Companies House in the UK to deal with and somebody at that address will be paid to deal with their formal correspondence. Also senior members of staff at Tivo Inc are directors of the UK subsidiary so their neck is on the line on this one.

    One point that does concern me a little over rwtomkins claims is that he has started it before Tivo have actually withdrawn the service (even though they threatened to do so from June 1st) so if it comes to court without Tivo yet having discontinued the Lifetime Service he potentially has no case.

    Is this I wonder why they are still carrying on providing the UK Tivo service........

    Also has rwtomkins made efforts to keep Neil Berkett, Sir Richard Branson and others in the loop over his claims as they potentially seem to have as much to lose in PR terms as Tivo does.
     
  18. orangeboy

    orangeboy yes, I AM orangeboy!

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    Some thoughts on the matter: While I agree that it is doubtful that TiVo is blissfully unaware, I DO doubt it is because of this forum thread. I would imagine that TiVo's legal team takes any type of litigation claims seriously, from the recent $500,000,000 settlement from Dish/Echostar down to this £100 (or however much) case. Why would they take this case seriously? As someone mentioned earlier: precedence. Having a loss on the books that can be used for citation leaves the door open for more successful cases against TiVo. Does TiVo want to spend their time and resources on tens or hundreds of cases? I think not; there are much bigger litigation issues with AT&T, Microsoft, and Verizon, concerning far larger sums of money. No, I believe TiVo's only reasonable response is to dispute the whole claim and file a defence, citing: "TiVo also reserves the right to discontinue the TiVo service altogether at any time in its discretion.", which appears to have been present in the Terms and Conditions at the time of retail sales in the UK. If TiVo can get a ruling in their favor on the books for this case (or others filed prior to this one), it would go a long way to stem the tide of similar cases.
     
  19. Heuer

    Heuer New Member

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    TiVo Inc, like all big companies, will have an in-house team of lawyers who are on the payroll playing cards, games or responding to claims, it matters not. Like all good litigators they will seek to make the plaintiff's cost rise to a point where they will fold. So TiVo dispute the claim on the basis they can discontinue service as per the T&C's and throw it back to the plaintiff to disprove it. The only way forward will be to seek professional help and that costs.
     
  20. Steve_K

    Steve_K Member

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    I'd agree with that

    Also can you submit a claim for loss of a service that hasn't actually been lost yet - even if TiVo said it would have by now?

    So hopefully they'll not respond in time.
     
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