You CAN submit a claim against TiVo (UK) Ltd for loss of service

Discussion in 'TiVo Series 1 - UK' started by rwtomkins, May 9, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. pemills

    pemills New Member

    51
    0
    Jan 29, 2003
    Norfolk

    Advertisements

    Thanks guy's I was starting to get paranoid, I for one are hoping that TiVo inc will turn a blind eye to our efforts to give our S1's a new lease of life, I'm not sure how the public a large would view it IF a 'Goliath' like TiVo tried to swat a 'David' like altEPG...... we all know how that story panned out :D
     
  2. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

    7,968
    0
    Aug 1, 2006
    Not Far...
    I don't think that Tivo would dare to or have any reason to start legal proceedings in the reverse direction given that they blatantly have completely walked away from 50% of Tivo S1 customers and reneged on Lifetime Service while many of the boxes were still functional as originally supplied and whilst they (Tivo) continue to provide Lifetime Service in the UK on newer boxes from Virgin.

    I also don't think they would wish the nonsense line that they are now spinning about the S1 units being a product that was wholly reliant on Sky and its EPG to be subject to too much further public scrutiny.

    When they have refused to even send a stock letter out in response to personal emails of complaint to senior Tivo executives and did not even send a final goodbye message out after the several message exhortations to buy a Virgin Tivo I am sure they would understand why some customers are unhappy enough to start legal proceedings against them. I also imagine they feel bad about having to dump half the UK S1 customers but are forced to do because those are the terms of the deal with Virgin including Virgin having a UK exclusive on EPG data in Tivo compatible format from Tribune Media Services.
     
  3. mikerr

    mikerr TiVoCentral.co.uk

    2,599
    0
    Jun 2, 2005
    Lancashire, UK
    "Obviously" there's no lifetime service on the VM boxes:
    a) you don't own the box
    b) £3/month is on the bill even if there's a discount cancelling it out.
    c) it'll not get service once you stop subscribing to VM

    Plus the fact that we pay VM, not TiVo.
     
  4. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

    7,968
    0
    Aug 1, 2006
    Not Far...
    Nonetheless there is still a Tivo with Tivo Service being distributed in the UK and it is Tivo who have chosen to not make the updated model available to customers not living in a Virgin Media cabled area and/or to cut off EPG service to the S1 Tivos whilst they still had a Tivo product being distributed and used within the UK.

    The fact that Tivo do not offer Lifetime on the new boxes is irrelevant as that is an offer that has also ebbed and flowed in the USA depending on marketing conditions.
     
  5. TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

    3,947
    0
    Dec 25, 2006

    Advertisements

    Dare? Are you saying TiVo's frit? You keep claiming that are/have been/are about to be damaged by some massive amount of non existent publicity.

    Reason? Because we've pissed them off. I'm sure you must have done something along those lines in your life.

    All it would take is a cease and desist letter, they wouldn't need to go to court.
     
  6. Wendell Pierce

    Wendell Pierce New Member

    2
    0
    Jun 27, 2011
    I have four UK Tivo S1, two of which have Lifetime subscriptions, one has never been activated, and one which was never activated, and has recently stopped powering on.
    I have no intention of claiming against Tivo but support the idea that UK Tivo Lifetime customers have been poorly served.
    I will not be transferring to Virgin Media, I have SKY HD subscriptions.

    I am wondering if now Tivo have closed the accounts of Lifetime subscribers, and disconnected access to the service they are now in breach of contract to Lifetime subscribers.
    The point being Tivo FAQ states:
    " Will my box need to remain connected via dial up or broadband in order to make its daily call to the TiVo Service?

    No, now that the service is disconnected, your box will not need to make a daily call or remain connected to your broadband or phone line. "

    So by their own reference the service still exists.

    When I was sold my Tivos I had the option of paying monthly or choosing a Lifetime account. Admittedly back then I wrongly assumed it meant the life of my Tivo - only recently realising it actually meant the life of the service.

    So if the service still exists - and my Lifetime status should allow access to the service with no subscription to pay - surely Tivo are acting wrongly to close UK Lifetime accounts.

    In my opinion Tivo have not done themselves credit acting this way. :thumbsdown::thumbsdown:
     
  7. Heuer

    Heuer New Member

    378
    0
    Mar 15, 2004
    Nottinghamshire
    Can't see how TiVo Inc can stop AltEPG as it does not infringe their copyright in any way. As TiVo owners we have the right to use the machines in perpetuity given we bought them not rented. Besides there is a similar service running in Oz from where the AltEPG guys received their help.

    Just to rub salt in the wound though I would dearly like to get my hands on an AltEPG hacked S3 TiVo with HD. Possibly the next stage for TiVoland? My deposit is here and waiting guys!
     
  8. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

    7,968
    0
    Aug 1, 2006
    Not Far...
    But you have to look at who started it.

    They cut off the service using only System Messages designed as a Virgin Media marketing tool to make the announcement and then refused to send out even a courteous letter in response to numerous personal emails and letters of appeal from customers criticising their decision.

    Also they didn't even provide a final software update to turn the boxes in to a useful hard drive based video recorder by disabling all the nag screens and Account closed screens and allowing you to define new channels.

    If they try to sue a group of the original UK Tivo enthusiasts I am sure that would feed back on to the US forums and go down very badly with Tivo owners over there and Tivo know that. Of course all too predictably you suggest they might take such action just because of your longstanding view that companies can do whatever they like as long as they can find a smart lawyer to back their actions (usually relying on the we can revise the contract at any time to be whatever we want it to be clause that customers were blackmailed in to signing to obtain the product).

    Oh and "cease and desist letters" are only of any use if the recipient actually ceases and desists in response to them However I'm pretty sure that in this case they would not.
     
  9. TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

    3,947
    0
    Dec 25, 2006
    I don't beleive that they will take any action, but I'm sure that both the creation of the AltEPG and using it, is in breach of the software license.

     
  10. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

    16,595
    62
    Apr 28, 2006
    semi-coastal NC
    I think the latest spin is that lifetime is for the lifetime of the box as long as they are offering the service, or weasel words to that effect.

    Interestingly, the part of the TiVo Service Agreement on the US website dealing with lifetime says the sub remains with the box for the lifetime of the box, but doesn't mention anything about "unless we discontinue the service", although I'm a little suspicious of their use of the phrase "Product Lifetime Subscription" instead of "Product Lifetime Service", which is what it says on the System Information page on the TiVo account status line.


     
  11. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

    7,968
    0
    Aug 1, 2006
    Not Far...
    You are ignoring the first rule of litigation.

    Namely that litigation is long, tortous and debilitating so that people only usually litigate if they see a major positive financial benefit for the victorious party.

    A judge would not be impressed about Tivo litigating about something that does not appear to be causing them any real financial loss and instead seems to be intended only to prevent a Tivo box continuing to fulfil its only purpose in life as an advanced television program recorder that Tivo no longer wishes to sell its own EPG service for even though it could have gone on doing so had it wanted to.
     
  12. TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

    3,947
    0
    Dec 25, 2006
    No, you are ignoring the first rule of litigation; that litigation is long, tortuous etc, so people will go out of their way to avoid it. I would be surprised if the AltEpG team has the resources to defend any action.
     
  13. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

    7,968
    0
    Aug 1, 2006
    Not Far...
    But you are ignoring that Tivo will not want all their dirty linen in terms of whatever they agreed to with Virgin about shutting down Lifetime Service on the S1 machines to be washed in public.

    The fact they don't want to talk in public about their deal with Virgin is made clear by their stony silence in response to all letters of complaint from UK Series 1 Tivo owners on the subject.

    The only people who actually have a potentially logical reason to litigate against the AltEPG are the owners of the EPG data it is currently using and they are not either Tivo, Virgin Media or Tribune Media Services. However the hobby use of various EPGs in this way by MediaPortal and other software is long established and as long as it does not appear to be losing the copyright owners big bucks on sales they might otherwise make then the chances are they won't resort to legal action. As Tivo owners are clearly a bunch of techno-dinosauars who will eventually die out it obviously isn't worth it.

    If you are concerned that litigation is the likely outcome then I am surprised that a successful and ambitious corporate executive such as yourself would ever have wished to be seen to be publicly linked with a project of this kind.
     
  14. TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

    3,947
    0
    Dec 25, 2006
    You miss my point. AltEPG has no money, so would concede before anything ever came to any court.

    I'm not concerned, as I said earlier.
     
  15. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

    7,968
    0
    Aug 1, 2006
    Not Far...
    What are Tivo going to sue for when the existence of the AltEPG isn't costing them any money. In fact it may be saving them money hence why they have been keen to informally disclose certain facts about their long term plans to Dave at Tivoland.

    Also AltEPG in principle has no formal corporate existence so who is there to take action against. Although in practice AltEPG might be seen as being a product of Tivoland (which is itself not a limited company but only a sole trader to the best of my knowledge). No doubt this is why Dave was keen to reach some some sort of agreement with Tivo that is subject to the infamous Non Disclosure Agreement before he embarked on acting as the lynchpin for the creation of the AltEPG service.

    The real legal issues could actually arise with the source EPG data. For that reason I hope that AltEPG is in a position to switch its XML data source in fairly short order without too much disruption of the AltEPG service.

    The other most likely party to actually take legal action could be Virgin who might object to non Virgin Media sourced Tivos continuing to operate within the Virgin Media area with free data hence at least theoretically depriving them of potential new sales of Virgin Media Tivos. Esoecially in the case of S1 Tivos being used with a Virgin Media based EPG lineup including the Virgin Media channel numbers. I could see the AltEPG potentially being pressurised in to longer supporting the Virgin Media EPG lineup for that reason.

    In any case I really don't think we ought to be having these kinds of discussions on a public forum and so am surprised that you have encouraged this line of debate.
     
  16. Steve_K

    Steve_K Member

    231
    0
    May 5, 2001
    Sussex, UK
    Have to agree per se TCM but there's an obvious defence for AltEPG.

    They just say "ah but we (without prejudice to other users rights) accept your change of law to be USA so sue us there then. Of course (a) we have no assets there and (b) you are aware of the USA law on "fair use" re Sega v. Accolade aren't you? So run along then Darth TiVo don't waste your money"
     
  17. GarySargent

    GarySargent New Member

    2,548
    0
    Oct 27, 2000
    W. Yorks, UK
    Yes Pete - probably the same conclusion TiVo came to when deciding whether or not to carry on the TiVo service for S1 users!
     
  18. TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

    3,947
    0
    Dec 25, 2006
    For someone so cynical, you can be very naive.

    The source used is cleared for non commercial use, but yes, the source can be switched.

    On what grounds might Virgin take legal action? There is no contract or commercial relationship between any of us and Virgin. You can't sue someone for doing something that costs you money, or all business in the UK would grind to a halt suing its competitors! Naive, as I said.

    Yet you continue to discuss!
     
  19. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

    7,968
    0
    Aug 1, 2006
    Not Far...
    Virgin Media might take legal action against Tivo on the grounds of their contract with them that says Tivo is now an EPG interface and television recorder system that is their exclusive property in the United Kingdom for the defined period of the agreement.

    This then forces Tivo to take legal action against the AltEPG. QED.

    You are the one who is suggesting litigation by Tivo is likely hence why I am surprised that you are now so keen to encourage it in the number one thread in the forum about legal action against Tivo that every senior Tivo executive in Alviso is bound to be subscribed to.

    Your position in being an active operative of the guerilla AltEPG project (unlike me) and then saying the AltEPG is going to have the pants sued off it by Tivo is somewhat contradictory. I therefore can only presume that you took out every possible policy going to cover your legal expenses before you decided to make posts on the forum deliberately designed to bate Tivo to sue you and your fellow AltEPG co-conspirators.;):p
     
  20. TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

    3,947
    0
    Dec 25, 2006
    Your "understanding" of the legal system never fails to amuse.


    I said the opposite, in fact. You could try reading the posts.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

spam firewall

Advertisements