You CAN submit a claim against TiVo (UK) Ltd for loss of service

Discussion in 'TiVo Series 1 - UK' started by rwtomkins, May 9, 2011.

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  1. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    On that point I would most certainly agree with you.

    As to why they were not better informed my own personal theory would be that they were a customer services person because management in large companies tends to always hide behind customer services for all customer communication but the job does not usually tend to attract very well informed or knowledgeable employees because of the passive and reactive nature of the role these staff are asked to perform.

    If Tivo had genuinely wanted to influence rwtomkins not to proceed with this legal action then Joshua Danovitz himself ought in my opinion to have made the phone call.
     
  2. Heuer

    Heuer New Member

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    The risk factor quoted says "Our current Television Listings Data Agreement with Tribune became effective on May 14, 2007 and has an initial term of five years and with TiVo having the right to renew the agreement for four additional years."

    Does that mean the service will actually cease on 12th May 2012 which is why we can still get EPG data? Presumably Tribune have been paid until that date so no skin off their nose if they keep the service running.
     
  3. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    I wouldn't have thought so as (a) Virgin will still need Tivo to be supplied with a UK EPG by TMS after that date for their Tivo product and (b) if the 12th May 2012 date was relevant we wouldn't have received notice of Tivo's intention to terminate the service on 1st June 2011.
     
  4. AMc

    AMc Active Member

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    Virgin must have had and continue to need a listings feed for their standard and V+ boxes. This will need to have included series link data since they launched the TVDrive years ago. AFAIK there has been no change to their standard STB set up in ages.

    What leads you to believe they're using the old Tivo S1 data over using the existing listings service they were already paying for and making basing new Virgin Tivo EPG off that?
     
  5. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    I have no idea what Virgin's EPG arrangements are for their non Tivo boxes. It is the previously confirmed fact that Virgin Media are sourcing EPG data from TMS via Tivo for the Virgin Tivo that I was referring to.

    Tivo's job is to process the raw data (a UK EPG feed from TMS with the Metadata) in to whatever file format each client requires. My assumption is that the raw EPG data feed from TMS continues over to Tribune unchanged and is then processed in to one or more data files compatible with any UK Tivo machines.

    As our networked S1 Tivos continue to find files to collect it is not completely impossible the S1 and S4 Tivos use the same data format although as the S4 Tivo also offers catchup tv and on demand stuff etc I can't say that this is completely likely. However the live UK EPG listings could be just one file that a Virgin Tivo uses and it may then have other data files sources for Catchup tv and on demand stuff that may come from Tivo/Tribune or may be sourced internally within Virgin.

    All I am trying to do is look at possible reasons why the UK S1 data files remain available to be collected even though Tivo said there would be no service available after June 1st. I realise that this apparently seems to go against the grain for those of you who are probably dutiful and loyal large company employees who just wait to be spoon fed those hard facts with evidence that your employer chooses to make available to you whilst apparently not questioning or speculating about any matters that your employer chooses to keep you in the dark about.
     
  6. Trinitron

    Trinitron New Member

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    That agreement covers US listings as well, so expect it to continue to 2016. Their first agreement was a one-year rolling deal that started in 1998. What isn't so clear is how the agreement with Virgin works, as the press releases in January were pretty explicit about TMS supplying VM with entertainment data, not TiVo yet TiVo are still having UK listings supplied to their servers. The next TMS or TiVo financial reports may shed some light on this.
     
  7. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    Its a commercial agreement that TMS EPG data can be used on Virgin Media Tivos but perhaps what is not made clear in the press release (since unlike various other contracts between Tivo and TMS no version of that contract can yet be found online even if you are prepared to pay to access it) is that Tivo is almost certainly involved in the loop as a conduit to reprocess the TMS data in to a format suitable for an S4 Tivo and that can be collected from Tivo's servers by an S4 Tivo.

    This is probably covered somewhere in the agreement that Virgin Media also have directly with Tivo for the use of their proprietary Tivo software and other related technology on their Virgin Media boxes. Also don't forget that everything about TMS has been in a state of flux for a long time due to the uncertainty caused by the Chapter 11 bankrupty protection.

    However it seems that TMS's restructuring is finally reaching completion given this press release issued by the company only three days ago:-

    See http://corporate.tribune.com/pressroom/?p=3134
     
  8. TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

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    I think that's just their internal term for us, because the payments etc would have come to TiVo from BSkyB who took the orders.
     
  9. rwtomkins

    rwtomkins New Member

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    Maybe the five-year deal with Tribune explains why they kept the UK TiVo service going so long? They'd paid for it anyway so maybe they thought they may as well go on supplying it rather than rock the boat by cutting it off. At least, until the Virgin deal came along.

    Pete77, thank you for pointing out the flaws in TiVo's version of events. I don't see a need though to get angry with the poor chap who delivered this information to me - I agree with Trinitron that he was probably just badly briefed. It does seem odd how TiVo seems convinced that we are all BSkyB customers, even to the extent of putting it on our T&Cs. It seems to be a view that's taken hold within TiVo and yes, perhaps all the people who know different have left.

    afrokiwi, you said how ironical it would be if they offered AltEPG as an alternative service but I think that's precisely what they have in mind. We'll soon see, if the promised FAQ appears. What I have to decide now is what would be enough to make me drop the claim. The promised FAQ seems a good start - the first thing is, they need to acknowledge, and start talking to, their UK customers, and they seem prepared to do that. I certainly don't want a grovelling apology but it would be nice if they simply expressed regret that the UK TiVo service had ended. The big question then is what they do to help keep UK customers' TiVo boxes working. As a lifetime subscriber I'd be happy with anything that didn't involve further spending, that had a reasonable life expectancy, that was a satisfactory substitute for the TiVo service and had TiVo's official approval and support. Is that expecting too much? What would you want?

    Meanwhile I'll get back to the TiVo person and correct him on his "facts"!
     
  10. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    Whilst it is certainly charitable of you to suggest the chap who called you was badly briefed I would be inclined to suggest that this was a mission only worth Tivo bothering with in the first place if the person who called you was in possession of the full facts of the matter.

    If I was you I would be inclined to pen an email to Joshua Danovitz saying it was awfully nice of his messenger to call you but that in view of the import of this matter and the significance of the issue to Tivo's corporate good name in the UK that you would very much appreciate a chance to discuss this matter with the head organ grinder responsible for the new deal with Virgin Media.

    Perhaps you could also say that the resolution you are seeking is for Tivo to renegotiate with Virgin Media so the the Exclusive arrangement is only in respect of new UK Tivos and not ones that were sold between eight and eleven years ago and that you believe these can still be supported for EPG data supply by Tivo without it damaging Virgin Media's exclusive proposition on new Tivo units. If that were to happen then you would happily withdraw your existing claim against Tivo.
     
  11. Trinitron

    Trinitron New Member

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    I vote for

    (b) None of the above.

    Pete, this is a claim in the small claims track of the County Court, not a winding up order against TiVo, Inc. If you want to speak to Mr Danowitz in person, why don't you put up your own claim instead of pontificating about what someone else should do? Or get on a plane to San Jose and find your way to Gold Street. I'm sure we could organise a whip-round for the fare. ;)
     
  12. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    But since Tivo UK Ltd proudly reports that it has no assets or cash at bank it may well turn out to cause a winding up order against that Tivo subsidiary in due course.

    Or at least that would be the easy way out paying any future claims assuming that Virgin Media's contract is directly with Tivo Inc and not with Tivo UK............
     
  13. dmeldrum

    dmeldrum New Member

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    You can't wind up a dormant company, and there is no point in attempting to do so. Winding up is about distributing any remaining assets - there are none.

    Clearly Virgin have a contract with TiVo Inc. Since TiVo UK is a dormant company.
     
  14. dmeldrum

    dmeldrum New Member

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    You constantly misunderstand the relationships between Virgin, Tribune and TiVo.

    TiVo have supplied the set top box software to Virgin. TiVo have also supplied the backend server based software for Virgin to run the service. Virgin get the Epg data direct from Tribune. TiVo have no involvement in the day to day provision of the Virgin service.

    If TiVo were to cease trading tomorrow and switch off all of their servers, Virgin would be unaffected. The only impact would be that they would not receive any further software updates.

    This appears to be the trading model that TiVo want going forward. TiVo are changing from a full service provider to a specialist software house.
     
  15. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    And how do you know in such great technical detail the precise manner in which Tribune, Virgin Media and Tivo interact with one another? Especially when the contract between Tribune and Tivo has never been published to the world at large.

    Do you work for one of these companies by any chance?
     
  16. michael401

    michael401 Member

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    Is that true - I haven't seen that written anywhere?


    (I mean I am aware that VM have a contract with TMS to supply the data but I didn't realize that VM were actually running and managing the guide data server)
     
  17. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    Quite Right. It hasn't been written anywhere even by a journalist as speculation.

    That is why I asked dmeldrum where he worked since he seems to know exactly what is going on behind the scenes.
     
  18. GarySargent

    GarySargent New Member

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    Surely all you need is the IP address the virgin box connects to, and then see if it is owned by TiVo or Virgin.
     
  19. TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

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    I would imagine it would be an address on Virgin's internal network, for reasons of robustness. If you were VM you wouldn't want you whole system to be reliant on an externally hosted 3rd party server.

    The fact that the EPG is supplied by Tribune to Virgin, not Tivo, is in the public domain; the press release has been linked to many times.

    That the TiVo service is hosted by Virgin is not public domain, but if you were VM's IT manager charged with keeping the vital EPG running to VM's subscribers, what would you do?
     
  20. Trinitron

    Trinitron New Member

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    Are you asking him to produce evidence to back up his claim? :eek:

    Something you have consistently failed to do when your assertions have been questioned.

    :rolleyes:
     
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