You CAN submit a claim against TiVo (UK) Ltd for loss of service

Discussion in 'TiVo Series 1 - UK' started by rwtomkins, May 9, 2011.

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  1. May 9, 2011 #1 of 677
    rwtomkins

    rwtomkins New Member

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    Good news for lifetime subscribers who would like to try claiming against TiVo (UK) Ltd for loss of service: TiVo (UK) Ltd is still a fully functioning legal entity in the UK and therefore, for a very small sum of money and with very little effort, you CAN make a claim against the company if you feel this is justified.

    I wanted to get this news out while there are still some UK users following this forum. If anyone interested in making a claim would like to say so here or PM me, perhaps we can stay in touch and compare notes even after June 1.

    I would like to thank steveroe for posting Tivo UK's address on a previous thread. The address is:

    TIVO (UK) LIMITED
    5 NEW STREET SQUARE
    LONDON
    EC4A 3TW

    I've established that this is still the company's legal, corporate address. Its communications are actually handled by a firm of lawyers at the same address but I have spoken to them and they confirm that TiVo UK is still fully functioning and that all communications with the company should be sent to that address.

    You can easily make a claim against TiVo (UK) Ltd by going to the Money Claim Online website, part of Her Majesty's Courts Service, and filling in an online form. The website is here:

    https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

    It costs £25 to make the claim and you automatically get your money back from the defendant if your claim succeeds.

    I haven't yet claimed against TiVo (UK) because like most people I had assumed this company was defunct. Instead I wrote a letter to TiVo Inc in the US which was completely ignored and after that I decided to try claiming against BSkyB as a first step.

    The hearing hasn't yet taken place but in the meantime BSkyB has entered a defence in which it states that basically my contractual relationship was with TiVo, not BSkyB, and that BSkyB therefore can't be held liable. It says it is "highly unlikely" that it ever had a telephone conversation with me in which it took a card payment of £199 for a lifetime subscription "since a subscription of the type described by the Claimant could not be purchased directly from the Defendant in relation to non-Sky products."

    Can anyone say whether this is true or not? Does anyone have any recollection of whether their lifetime subscription was paid to BSkyB or to TiVo?

    Now that I know TiVo (UK) Ltd is actually still operating I'm inclined to drop my claim against BSkyB and make a new claim against TiVo (UK) Ltd which would obviously have a far greater chance of success but I want to make sure BSkyB has got its facts right before making the switch.
     
  2. May 9, 2011 #2 of 677
    LarryDavid

    LarryDavid New Member

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    well, good luck. I don't rate your chances, but good luck anyway.
     
  3. May 9, 2011 #3 of 677
    sjp

    sjp Active Member

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    if you'd asked me pre April 5th last year I would probably have been able to locate my credit card statement as I hadn't had a paperwork clearout since moving into this house - that weekend cost me a shredder.

    while I'm too lazy to do much about it myself I too wish you luck.

    if you do get as far as a courtroom I wonder if they'll even bother defending. if they don't show there's a fairly decent chance that the magistrate will rule in your favour - they don't like the defendants not showing up. remember that you can add a bit on for your troubles, last time I did this the magistrate added the max £50.

    if granted though, collecting might be a little interesting.
     
  4. May 9, 2011 #4 of 677
    Richard42

    Richard42 New Member

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    I paid for my lifetime subs by credit card ( in November 2000 :D ) and being a squirrel I still have the statement.
    Payment was made to TiVo.
    I also have a letter from TiVo thanking me for taking out the lifetime subscription.
     
  5. May 9, 2011 #5 of 677
    TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

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    Remind me what exactly you are trying to claim again?
     
  6. May 9, 2011 #6 of 677
    Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    Not Far...
    I am all for joining you but think I can only lay my hands on the letter confirming the Lifetime Sub payment but not on a credit card statement from December 2002. Sadly NatWest's online records only go back six years.

    Let me know when you file your new action against Tivo and if there is a way for me to be joined as a party to it under the Small Claims procedure. Courts usually take legal actions involving a large number of joint applicants more seriously.

    Oh and this is the County Court by the way so it will be a district judge and not a magistrate although confusingly they do also now have those in the magistrates court and bring them in instead of a magistrates bench if they think you have any chance of winning your case.

    EDIT:- I have just realised I can probably get a copy of the requisite card statement from NatWest if I agree to pay them a fiver, assuming that their offline records still go back this far.

    Regarding who you dealt with on the phone it was clearly a Sky customer service centre employee working on behalf of Tivo but without the card statement I can't be sure if the card payment was to Sky or Tivo. However I would think Sky would successfully manage to argue that any residual contractual liability for the Lifetime service lies with Tivo and not with BSkyB.
     
  7. May 9, 2011 #7 of 677
    Trinitron

    Trinitron New Member

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  8. May 9, 2011 #8 of 677
    Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    Not Far...
    I agree that might be the easier one to win as a card issuer will only be concerned about the cost of the legal action vs the potential refund cost of the transaction so might give in on that basis. Although I'm sure some trading standards legal principles about goods only being expected to be "fit for the purpose" for six years and so on might make for problems at this stage.

    Also as I think rwtomkins really seeks to make a political point (with a small p) about Tivo's withdrawal of service he is probably more interested in trying to force Tivo itself to attend court. However as Tivo will probably not be very keen to do so compared to the card company he might be more likely to win his case.

    One interesting point to consider is whether Tivo's UK subsidiary also has a current ongoing contractual relationship with Virgin Media or if that arrangement is direct with the US Tivo legal entity given that much of Virgin Media seems to be US based.
     
  9. May 9, 2011 #9 of 677
    rwtomkins

    rwtomkins New Member

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    Obviously I'm a bit more optimistic than you, Larry, but thanks very much for the friendly good wishes, both of you! Much appreciated. And thanks for the tip, sjp.

    That's enormously helpful. Thank you very much indeed.

    Not if you're just going to rubbish the whole idea!

    I will explore this idea and thanks for the suggestion. The alternative is just to use me as a stalking horse and see if I win though if as you say the courts take more notice of claims with multiple signatories, there may very well be merit in it.

    Yes, it's mainly about the money paid for the lifetime subscription and thanks very much for the suggestion. It's a very good idea but as Pete rightly guesses, it's not really about the money. I know it sounds corny but it's the principle of the thing. I think TiVo knows it's breaking its agreement with lifetime subscribers but is just trying it on and seeing if it can get away with it. Well, it has, almost, but I don't want to go down without a fight, even if it's only a small one. For TiVo, the stakes are potentially high: if I win, they will be liable to all 12,000 lifetime subscribers who were on the roll last September. So I think they might have to take this quite seriously.
     
  10. May 9, 2011 #10 of 677
    alek

    alek New Member

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    I can see the headline now.

    Class action lawsuit by disgruntled uk tivo users has multinational company on the ropes.




    If you can take an action on behalf of many, rather than individually, I will chip in a few quid just for the hell of it.

    Alek
     
  11. May 9, 2011 #11 of 677
    Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    Good man rwtomkins. I feel precisely the same way as you do although I personally feel that the real villain heres are senior Virgin Media marketing people who have demanded that the old S1 Tivo service is cut off on June 30th so that they can get as many sales as possible of the new Virgin Tivo and also so that Tivo is now seen to be a Virgin only product that is not available at all on any other tv platform. Its the same kind of nasty mentality that was involved in only being able to apply for tickets for the Olympic games using a Visa card.

    I feel this is shoddy and appalling behaviour as Tivo clearly were an ethical company up until they had their arm twisted by the commercial muscle of Virgin and rightly felt that they should go on supplying a service originally sold to customers as Lifetime. But Virgin clearly told Tivo they they didn't care about this and only cared about their UK exclusive and anyhow if anyone tried to take them on over the issue their experience was that legal spend on their side would always overpower the small private individual.

    There is no need for all these perfectly good Virgin S1 boxes to be denied service while they are still working perfectly well and for it to be done just so that Virgin can say "yah boo you can only have Tivo through Virgin" seems stupid in the extreme. Cutting off the S1 boxes in Virgin Media land is I would suggest even more ethically questionable unless Virgin are prepared to supply a new Virgin Media Tivo box free of charge on the customer's existing tv package with no monthly Tivo fee required for existing S1 Lifetime customers.
     
  12. May 9, 2011 #12 of 677
    Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    This thread over on a US discussion forum makes for quite interesting reading in terms of how US Tivo owners might feel if their S1 machines suddenly had Lifetime service cut off:-

    www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-02/tivo-lifetime-service-lasts-10-years-uk/

    One thing that does strike me though is that Tivo have never yet provided a formal corporate response to the many UK customer complaints sent to it on this issue. This suggests to me that they could still be considering the whole position in conjunction with Virgin and might decide to continue Lifetime service to the S1 units after all if things look like they will get too hot for them if the service is discontinued as originally threatened.

    I would suggest that anyone wanting to pursue the issue at the very least sends an email to richard.branson@virginmanagement.com and neil.berkett@virginmedia.com as well as Joshua Danovitz and all the other senior Tivo executives who have their email addresses listed at http://free.salesfuel.com/CoIntell/C...panyID=1998913
     
  13. May 9, 2011 #13 of 677
    TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

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    Just curious as you have to put a number to your claim, and wondered what it was.
     
  14. May 9, 2011 #14 of 677
    TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

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    Too hot? Things never got beyond slightly tepid and have cooled off since.

    In three week's time the service will be turned off. As far as I can see you are the only person left who hasn't accepted tgat.
     
  15. May 9, 2011 #15 of 677
    Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    So you think rwtomkins is really interested in getting compensation rather than in keeping official service for the S1 UK Tivos going? I suppose at least you can be commended for the consistency of your defeatist approach.:rolleyes:
     
  16. May 10, 2011 #16 of 677
    TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

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    I think he's interested in causing a little bit of grief to TiVo to make a point, which I can understand. There are various outcomes of his action, which range from getting £0 to getting the amount of cash he asks for. The S1 service continuing is not one of the possible outcomes.
     
  17. May 10, 2011 #17 of 677
    Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    If the S1 service is not discontinued on June 1st then legally his case will collapse. Hence it is a possible option by Tivo for dealing with his legal action.
     
  18. May 10, 2011 #18 of 677
    Trinitron

    Trinitron New Member

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    You keep repeating this but haven't produced any evidence to support these potentially libellous statements.
     
  19. May 10, 2011 #19 of 677
    Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    You think they are going to publicly admit to doing such a thing then. Of course they won't because its not good PR for either them or Tivo.

    If we followed your line of reasoning then nobody could ever suggest that Messrs Mugabe, Hussein Quadafi etc had killed loads of their own people unless somebody could produce all the bodies and find an exact DNA match on every single one.

    My experience of life is that if Virgin had nothing whatsoever to do with the withdrawal of the S1 Tivo service then they would all be too keen to publicly deny such allegations. The fact that they don't tends to tell its own story.

    Then you make ludicrous allegations that I am making libellous allegations. A lot of things can be called libel by internet pedants but the real test of that is whether your allegation is actually serious or damaging enough for somebody to bother starting a libel action against you in which they hope to win a serious amount of damages. As libel actions are expensive and hard to win people don't start them unless you have done serious damage to their reputation.
     
  20. May 10, 2011 #20 of 677
    Trinitron

    Trinitron New Member

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    No, I hoped you could publicly produce some facts to support your allegations. But you clearly can't.

    Have you asked them to? No one is doubting that the VM deal is a significant factor in the decision to drop S1 support but you are putting the blame on Virgin whereas most other people posting here appear to see it as a decision of TiVo, Inc.

    Oh, that's ok then. I stand corrected.
     
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