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Working Details of "Going Away Soon" & Space Needed Deletes

Discussion in 'TiVo Help Center' started by BH9244, May 14, 2018.

  1. BH9244

    BH9244 Member

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    Feb 10, 2009
    I had posted some time ago hoping someone could enlighten me on the functional details as to how space needed deletes operate but unfortunately didn't get any useful info so I'm hoping I'll have better luck this time. Although I appreciated prior replies that suggested installing a larger capacity drive or setting the SP's to Keep Until delete, it doesn't answer my core question which is trying to have a fuller understanding of how this function operates.

    In particular I have often had multiple recordings unintentially deleted following the transfer of a previously transferred recording back onto the Tivo.

    Here is a specific example of what troubles me.

    This afternoon I had about 100GB of free space on my 3TB Tivo Drive, the Going Away Soon list indicated that there would be recordings deleted tomorrow if needed, so I felt safe that I could transfer a recording of approx. 6GB from a external drive onto the Tivo for viewing without fear of other recording being deleted, when I initiated the transfer I got a warning message indicating that several recordings would be deleted earlier than previously scheduled but the earliest would take place on Thurs. After transferring the recording I find that about a dozen recording had summarily been deleted with the history indicating "Space Needed" yet the Free Space on the drive increased from about 80 GB to 110 GB, I would have expected that the system would utilizing existing free space before deleting recording that that clearly is not the case, I can recall similar things happening whilst I still had 300 or 400 GB free.

    If anyone can shine some light on the subject I'd certainly be appreciative..
     
  2. ThAbtO

    ThAbtO TiVoholic by the bay

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    SF Bay Area
    Try not using the green "Keep Until I Delete" so much. If you had everything set to that, Tivo will stop recording until there is room for more. This will also delete the yellow dot marked shows delete sooner when the Recently Deleted folder is empty, and follow by suggestions (if turned on).

    You should try and not fill up the drive as much. Shows that are not copy protected can be transferred to a computer if you want to keep them.

    Tivo is not really meant as a long term storage for the shows. Eventually it will get deleted and may not be recoverable.

    Best is to transfer the shows to a computer (programs like KMTTG, PyTivo) will transfer over, but to get them back, PyTivo is what to use. KMTTG is download only, but has many more features that are useful.
     
  3. BH9244

    BH9244 Member

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    Feb 10, 2009

    Thanks for the reply but again, I am well aware of those options and utilize them, what I'm interested in is some background as to how that function operates so I can adjust appropriately.
     
  4. ThAbtO

    ThAbtO TiVoholic by the bay

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    Apr 6, 2000
    SF Bay Area
    When the Tivo is about to record, it may "Over" delete for space needed, first clearing the Recently Deleted, then suggestions, followed by the oldest shows with yellow dots (with and without !)
     
    BH9244 likes this.
  5. BH9244

    BH9244 Member

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    Feb 10, 2009
    Yes this makes sense, I don't have suggestions turned on, can't understand why it doesn't appear to utilize existing free space first, thinking maybe it only does above a certain threshold, ie if there were say 350GB free space it would utilize the portion over 300 first .
     
  6. ClearToLand

    ClearToLand Old !*#$% Tinkerer!

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    Jul 9, 2001
    Central Jersey
    I have had PyTiVo incorrectly OVER delete so many times that I stopped transferring shows back PC-to-TiVo and exclusively use Streambaby to watch offloaded recordings. It's a longstanding known bug in PyTiVo (and thus also PyTivoDesktop).

    I use KUID for everything that I must watch -> GREEN = SAFE. Once viewed, I switch it to 'Space Needed' which goes to Blue to Yellow to finally Yellow! I have a Roamio w/ 500GB HDD that goes from 70% to 100%, Suggestions OFF. I have my overflow on 3TB USB Ext. HDDs and am in the process of moving it to a NAS running Plex (i.e. new shows go to NAS; old shows get deleted from USB HDD as they're watched).
     
  7. HerronScott

    HerronScott Well-Known Member

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    Staunton, VA
    What are you using to transfer shows back to the TiVo (versions including version of ffmpeg if in use)?

    This has been reported before by others as well. At least one person reported that their issue was related to using a newer version of ffmpeg and reverting to an older version resolved the issue for them. I use pyTivo but I also make sure that all my content is standard MPEG2 so it isn't transcoded and haven't seen any issues here.

    Scott
     
  8. BH9244

    BH9244 Member

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    Feb 10, 2009

    Using PyTivo
     
  9. JoeKustra

    JoeKustra in the other Alabama TCF Club

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    Ashland, PA...
    I'm not trying to hijack this thread, and this subject has been a problem for others in the past. I would like to add something I have seen since my first day using a TiVo.

    There are two ways to look at My Shows. From the TiVo or from a PC using one of the great programs like pyTiVo and kmttg. Part of the confusion results from one thing using one set of rules and the other thing using its set of rules. I recorded Timeless on Sunday. I just checked and it has a Keep Until date of 5/15 (today). In My Shows it has a nice blue dot. With TiVo Desktop (TD) it has a yellow dot with an exclamation point. The same program, but different opinions. The 1P for Timeless was Keep At Most: All. That option stops the yellow dot in My Shows. The default is 25. Also, I know my disk in not physically full.

    This difference in space reclamation rules may have some influence with unexplained program deletion. Sorry for the interruption.
     
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  10. HerronScott

    HerronScott Well-Known Member

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    What version and perhaps more importantly what version of ffmpeg? Also what format was the show that you uploaded (did it have to be transcoded)?

    Scott
     
  11. BH9244

    BH9244 Member

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    Feb 10, 2009
    PyTivo V 2.7.13, Not using ffmpeg unless that is part of PyTivo ?, native TiVo recording format.
     
  12. BH9244

    BH9244 Member

    151
    1
    Feb 10, 2009
    Damnit this is frustrating, here's the setup. I had 887 recordings, 120 GB Free Space and 27 Recently Deleted Recordings. I went to Transfer a episode of Chicago Pd which was approx. 6GB in size from a laptop back to the TiVo, was given a warning about various future scheduled recording that would be deleted earlier but none within the next few days. When the transfer completed I find that all the recording in the recently deleted folder were and 16 of the non deleted recording were removed due to "space needed, when the transfer was done it show approx. 150GB available space. Wish I could get a grasp on this stuff.
     
  13. PSU_Sudzi

    PSU_Sudzi Well-Known Member

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    Maybe manually clear the deleted folder as it gets full and see if that makes space?
     
  14. HerronScott

    HerronScott Well-Known Member

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    Staunton, VA
    Yes, ffmpeg would be part of pyTivo for shows that need to be transcoded, but I would not have expected that to be needed for a .TiVo show. These are still in .TiVo format correct? If not there is another thread recently covering some of the issues caused by newer versions of ffmpeg and some workarounds (parameters or moving back to an older version of ffmpeg).

    Scott
     
  15. BH9244

    BH9244 Member

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    Feb 10, 2009
    Yes not modified, original TiVo format
     
  16. BH9244

    BH9244 Member

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    Feb 10, 2009
    I'm not sure that would help it appears to me that it goes after recently deleted recordings first then next starts picking off non KUID recordings all the while seemingly ignoring existing free space.
     
  17. ej42137

    ej42137 Well-Known Member

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    My experience has been that free space is used until it's filled with deleted recordings, then the oldest deleted recordings are used.
     
  18. NorthAlabama

    NorthAlabama tabasco rules

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    sweet home, al
    it's not ignoring the existing free space, it's counting on it when planning to record upcoming shows in your to do list. when you transfer a recording, it forces tivo to re-calculate for space needed, not only for that one smaller recording, but also for the space needed for future recordings in your to do list that have shifted closer since the previous calculation.

    if you didn't transfer the show, the next automatic calculation would have probably been initiated when the next show in your to do list started recording.
     
  19. ClearToLand

    ClearToLand Old !*#$% Tinkerer!

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    Central Jersey
    When you ask a question on the internet (or GOOGLE for information), the answers / results you receive are the 'interpretations' of another person. You have to learn how to 'separate the wheat from the chaff', the facts from the BS, etc... For me, that involves *LOTS* of reading and experimentation. You have to decide what's right for you. :cool:

    Back in Jan 2017:
    ...you never even mention PC-to-TiVo transfers, so the suggestion to either offload more or install a bigger HDD to increase your free space was the most appropriate.
    This time around, you explicitly mention transferring shows back onto the TiVo:
    ...and I gave you my foolproof solution in Post #6 to which you did not respond.

    So, here's a challenge / experiment for you (and the others). Check your HISTORY:
    1. How many times has your TiVo unit deleted more space than necessary (i.e. ALL of your Recently Deleted along with several, or ALL, of your Yellow Dots) when RECORDING one new program?
      [Me: Never. (500GB Roamio Basic usually 80-100% full)]
      .
    2. How many times has your TiVo unit deleted more space than necessary (i.e. ALL of your Recently Deleted along with several, or ALL, of your Yellow Dots) when TRANSFERRING one program from one TiVo unit to another TiVo unit?
      [Me: Never. (500GB and 1TB Roamio OTAs - offloads only, no recordings. I can watch the "Going Away Soon" lists shrink as I offload from the Basic and I get an error if I attempt to Transfer more than I make space for by clearing KUIDs)]
      .
    3. How many times has your TiVo unit deleted more space than necessary (i.e. ALL of your Recently Deleted along with several, or ALL, of your Yellow Dots) when TRANSFERRING one program from your PC to a TiVo unit?
      [Me: Multiple times.]
    A TiVo unit that is ~50% full (of 3TB) and records ~21 hours per week is going to react MUCH differently from one that is constantly ~90-100% full (of 500GB) and records 42+ hours per week (depending of course on how fast you watch and delete shows). Not using KUID and keeping 25 episodes, or *ALL*, isn't going to prevent Yellow Dots on a TiVo that is full. If you're recording the World News with David Muir each night, keeping all episodes, not using KUID and you're at 100% space used, what do you expect the TiVo unit to do? ;)

    Your problem is the method in which pyTiVo (I have no experience with TiVo Desktop) communicates to the TiVo unit how much space it needs for the *ONE* transfer you plan to begin. There's *MUCH* talk about solutions (different version of ffmpeg, set Video_BR=128K) but, AFAICT, you have two choices:
    1. Stop transferring shows back to your TiVo from your PC.
      Use Streambaby to stream them instead.
      .
    2. Create more Free Space on your TiVo.
      Either offload more shows or install a bigger HDD.
    1 - (100 / 3072) = ~96.7%. Only TiVo knows the exact algorithm used to calculate space requirements but you have only ~3.3% available. Try getting to 80% used with ~600GB of free space and see what happens. Or stop transferring shows back and use Streambaby (or Plex - but note that Plex has restrictions on Series 5 and lower units; i.e. 720p @ 4Mbps) to view them.

    If you insist on attempting to micro-manage your available HDD space on your TiVo while performing pyTiVo transfers back without using KUID to protect the shows that you do not wish to lose, please post back when you find a solution. In the mean time, I hope my wordy explanation helps save a few of your shows! :)
     
  20. ClearToLand

    ClearToLand Old !*#$% Tinkerer!

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    Central Jersey
    This was back when I first started using kmttg and pyTiVo (late 2015 and/or early 2016), transferred ~1TB worth of shows using kmttg in TS format (MPEG-2, not H.264), didn't decrypt (just saved the .TIVO file) and then months later when I attempted to use pyTiVo to transfer them back to view them either they wouldn't transfer at all or they would delete all my Recently Deleted and Yellow Dots. IIRC, the .TIVO wouldn't transfer at all due to what I now have learned were TS Sync Errors and then when I decrypted them to .MPG, I would run into the 'Space Calculation Error' (possibly due to PTS inconsistencies?). There is / was so much to learn as a TiVo newbie!

    It's heartbreaking the first time you lose *ALL* your Yellow Dots! :cry: :mad:

    I've had pyTiVo Desktop running for several nights recently so I have the directories listed at the bottom of my NPL and have 'glanced' around. IIRC, the recommendation in 2015-2016 was "ts=on" but just tonight on the OG pyTiVo repository I saw that it changed to "ts=auto". I believe that the pyTiVo Desktop .config defaults to "ts=auto" and I recently read about "video_br=127K" so trying a PC-to-TiVo transfer again is on my ToDo List, but, realistically, at the bottom. :p I can see the pending ffmpeg command when I check 'Info' before the Transfer so haphazardly I'm trying to see which shows say TRANSCODE=YES and which say TRANSCODE=NO. I think that it's going to depend on MPEG-2 vs H.264 and possibly TS vs PS but I haven't invested much time, or thought, into it thus far.

    Initially, after experiencing the pyTiVo 'Space Calculation Errors' (for want of a better term), I started reading about Plex. When folks recommend it, you hardly ever see the caveat about Series 5 and 720p @ 4Mbps though. :rolleyes: The NAS I picked with a Celeron J1800 Dual Core (vs the ARM) was supposed to handle transcoding one stream real time (per Plex documentation) but alas, it can't. Then I tried Streambaby. What a joy to use on my Series 5 - Trick Play, AutoSkip and NO transcoding. Why don't more people talk about Streambaby? Why don't you use Streambaby? :D

    Getting back to your successful pyTiVo PC-to-TiVo transfers:
    • You already stated that they are MPEG-2.
      .
    • Originally offloaded via TS or PS?
      .
    • How big is the HDD on your TiVo unit and how much free space do you have?
     

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