WMC replacement?

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by mzegeek, Aug 15, 2016.

  1. Aug 22, 2016 #41 of 124
    mlcarson

    mlcarson Member

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    Well, that required purchasing a lifetime subscription or an all-in plan. The All-in is currently priced at $550 so your breakeven period is 22 years. Even the original lifetime pricing had a 10 year breakeven.

    The first remote I wanted was a Logitech 650 since somebody has already made everything work with that. My next one might be something different as I learn more. That $16 Nevo C2 is $45 on Amazon and is discontinued so not much of a difference. The 650 had lots of good reviews so is probably not a bad choice. If the refurbished ones were actually by the manufacturer, I'd probably go that way but I'm not so sure what Amazon means by certified refurbished in this case.

     
  2. Aug 22, 2016 #42 of 124
    mdavej

    mdavej Well-Known Member

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    My last Roamio included lifetime for $299. Depending on how much of that you attribute to the hardware vs. the subscription, could be from 0 to 12 years break even. Since my WMC related hardware with the same functionality cost me $300, I valued the Tivo hardware at $300, hence 0 year break even in my estimation. I agree you'd be crazy to go for lifetime on a new Bolt. I would never have paid the original lifetime price either.

    C2 was discontinued years ago. There are lots of great things that are discontinued. The Harmony One still has a huge following as does Pronto. But the Nevo is still the best remote value around since it's currently discounted about 90% and we wrote our own excellent programming software for it, far superior to Logitech's myharmony crap. Not a good idea to pay triple the going price on Amazon when they're $16 shipped on ebay. I grabbed 20 of these remotes when they dropped to such low prices. I'll be discontinued before I run out of Nevos.

    In any case the 650 is a fine remote. Just offering a better, cheaper alternative.
     
  3. Aug 22, 2016 #43 of 124
    mr.unnatural

    mr.unnatural Well-Known Member

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    Ellicott...
    I'm not trying to convince you to do anything. I've learned that to be a complete waste of time to try and sway anyone to my way of thinking in a public forum. It's all good. I'm only trying to explain the pros and cons of using WMC as to how it relates to the past and the present. EPG123 takes both Rovi and Microsoft out of the equation. I don't see how $25 per year for a Schedules Direct subscription tips the scale and makes it more expensive than a Tivo. EPG123 is absolutely free unless you want to give a donation to the developer. You set it up once and it updates the guide data automatically at a time of your choosing. I pay for a single subscription and I believe it is valid for up to five HTPCs. Getting rid of Rovi and adding the extra features offered by EPG123 is more than worth the cost.

    Maintaining logos is clearly a pet peeve of yours and not something most WMC users would do at anywhere near the same level that you do. I installed mine once and never gave it a second thought. You're using something that you are clearly anally retentive about as an excuse why you dumped WMC, which is completely ludicrous. The channels I watch or record from all have logos, with but a few exceptions, so I'm fine with it as is.

    That may be true technically, but the "free" guide data you get from Tivo/Rovi is useless without the Tivo service, which costs you much more than a Schedules Direct subscription.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  4. Aug 22, 2016 #44 of 124
    snedecor

    snedecor Member

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    TiVo is vastly improved from when I left it (Series 2) for WMC.

    When Micro$oft abandoned WMC, I thought long and hard, and did a whole hog switch.

    1) switched from satellite to digital cable, as no DVR other than satellite's own work with satellite.
    2) Dumped WMC for a Roamio plus I got as part of the loyalty deal, with lifetime. It was a bit expensive, but I plan to sell off HTPC's to offset some of the cost.
    3) Purchased a TiVo mini for the master bedroom.
    This would have been enough (6 tuners), and I could have purchased another mini for the spare bedroom, but I found a Roamio OTA lifetime cheap on amazon and put that in the spare bedroom, and upgraded it to 3tb.

    Can watch content from either TiVo on any other TiVo, I can stream content from either TiVo's on any PC in the house (although not using remote control).

    Can download, remove commercials, and archive or compress to PC-compatible files using kmttg (great program!).

    Skip mode is GREAT! Have I mentioned that SKIP MODE IS GREAT! If nothing else justifies the switch to TiVo, skip mode does!

    Still have one old HTPC pushing IR to the cable box and recording some stuff just in case, but I haven't switched to it in months.

    WMC's movie feature I have implemented with Plex, seems to work OK.


    What have I lost? The same interface on any TV in the house, and any PC in the house, because they were either running WMC or could run WMC. The ability to stream to PC's with remote control access. Native PC compatible show storage. That's about it.

    Call me a (formerly grudging) convert!

    Snedecor
     
  5. Aug 23, 2016 #45 of 124
    mr.unnatural

    mr.unnatural Well-Known Member

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    Ellicott...

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    You do realize you can do the same thing with WMC, right? Any WMC remote can do a 30-second skip by default and there are several commercial mapping apps that work reasonably well. File transfers don't require any special apps and the same editing programs you use with .tivo files work with WMC recordings as well. In fact, there isn't a single feature you listed that I can't do with my HTPCs. The only exception is sharing protected content between PCs or mapping commercials on said programs. Any program flagged as copy freely can be shared or edited.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  6. Aug 23, 2016 #46 of 124
    atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    SkipMode isn't 30 second skip and is significant, most people don't understand until they have used it.

    Saying "In fact, there isn't a single feature you listed that I can't do with my HTPCs" and then saying that statement isn't true, is fairly comical.
     
  7. Aug 23, 2016 #47 of 124
    slowbiscuit

    slowbiscuit FUBAR

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    He's good like that - misinformation about how WMC can do everything Tivo can do, and then some. Skip Mode is a perfect example because you CAN'T do that 100% accurately on WMC. Quick Play is another one you can't do.

    Doesn't really matter, no one's going to change their mind here.
     
  8. Aug 23, 2016 #48 of 124
    mschnebly

    mschnebly Well-Known Member

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    I use MyChannelLogos Version 2 to do logo population and it's is quick, simple and complete.
     
  9. Aug 23, 2016 #49 of 124
    adessmith

    adessmith Active Member

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    I have experienced Quick Play on WMC on occasion... however I was never able to control when it actually happened... haha (it appeared to be a bug). We always had to stop the show and restart it to get it to play back at the correct speed.

    Also, the way I see it, I include the price of the lifetime subscription in with the price of the hardware. We are going to forget, for now, that I got my roamio with lifetime for free from a friend, and base my opinion on what I was "prepared to spend". I figured I could spend either $399 on a TiVo OTA, OR build a new HTPC (realistically I'm not sure $399 would go very far with an HTPC, so it probably would have been at least $600, but we will be conservative and assume the price is the same). With either option, I have a somewhat large investment upfront and no monthly fees. I could care less what the "break even point" is, all I care about is the overall cost and whether I will get the content and features I want. A few years ago, WMC gave me what I wanted. Today, it looks like TiVo is doing that. I see neither as being drastically more expensive than the other. Either way, if I spread the TOTAL cost out over 5 years (conservative... I'll likely get more than 5 years out of either solution) It is still less expensive than renting a DVR from my cable company (and I'm doing OTA instead of cable, so saving even more).
    I still have my old HTPC running, but I've used it VERY LITTLE since hooking up the TiVo. I'm sure it uses a lot of unnecessary power, so I should probably start shutting it down when I'm not using it.
     
  10. Aug 23, 2016 #50 of 124
    mdavej

    mdavej Well-Known Member

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    I made many of those logos for makryger, so you're welcome ;) I wish I could use them on Tivo somehow since my logo library is more complete than Tivo's.

    Comm skip in WMC is kind of complicated to pull off and generally not as accurate as Tivo.

    Getting back to the original question of what is a good WMC replacement, so far the answers are, in no particular order:

    - Don't replace WMC (optionally subscribe to a third party guide)
    - Replace it with a stand-alone system like Tivo or Channel Master
    - Replace it with any number of other DVR software packages, but lose DRM recording capability

    Any non-WMC PC-based solutions also have more complexity, especially for whole-home systems.
     
  11. Aug 23, 2016 #51 of 124
    adessmith

    adessmith Active Member

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    I've kept my eyes on the Silicon Dust HDHomerun DVR, but I couldn't hold off any longer and there is a lot of uncertainty about how long it will be before they have a fully functional public release.
    Its definitely something to follow, it looks very promising.
     
  12. Aug 23, 2016 #52 of 124
    mdavej

    mdavej Well-Known Member

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    That's what I thought 14 months ago when I contributed to their kickstarter. Unfortunately they've only managed to build a really crappy DVR for a couple of platforms and made no progress with DRM. They will never have a fully functional public release.
     
  13. Aug 23, 2016 #53 of 124
    tivoyahoo

    tivoyahoo New Member

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    Thanks for the Nevo info. :up: Something that wasn't even on my radar. But now I checked ebay and looks like the going price is $19.80 with free shipping. And am looking at ordering a couple, but where should I look for more info? do you have some good links you can point me to? the ebay photos are all the same and don't show the screen in action. And it looks like it may be top heavy and wide as compared to a tivo rf peanut remote. looks like maybe more of a guy's remote based on the size so maybe I'll just order a couple instead of 3-4. for example, I don't see a kid liking it compared to a peanut. And others might be intimidated by it as it looks complex. But I like what I see, so I'm probably in for a couple at least for my use to start with. but with it being discontinued, can you share some links / point me in the right direction to learn more ?

    And I'm also looking at Sage TV (for many of the same reasons as mcarlson - frustrations with comcast/tivo after the roamio issue, limitations of Plex on Tivo, rovi data) to supplement my network of tivos that are both cable & ota. although there is a console gamer in the house so xbox/ps4 would be part of the mix I was hoping and maybe sage isn't the way to go (or I leave those out of the integration). So do I need to pair the Nevo with some type of IR receiver hardware to be able to control networked devices? is the nevo IR only? So I guess I have basic questions like that which i'm sure are answered with some links. although from mcarlson's posts, sounds like this kind of integrated setup is already well figured out and in place and documented on the web for Logitech Harmony. but for $20, I'm in at least for IR to give it a shot.

    If I have all my tivos set to different IR addresses / channels 1-9, I can control them all with Nevo, right? I still use one of the old tivo remotes with the dvr1-2 slide switch that can control two tivos, but it's so worn out, but I can at least get rid of that right with a Nevo? is there a link that explains how to program Nevo not to send as IR address zero commands that all tivos receive and respond to? And then the other users in the house can continue using the small peanut rf paired remotes, right? if they don't like the size and weight and layout of the Nevo and want to stick to peanut. although I've got an IR mini1 and some non rf tivos as well. And of course the peanut only controls so much.

    And then does nevo control xbox and playstation? there's a probably even a TCF thread on this where I should take all these questions, so just point me in the right direction please so I can get on board. thanks.
     
  14. Aug 23, 2016 #54 of 124
    mdavej

    mdavej Well-Known Member

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    Funny you should ask. I happen to have written a wiki about it that also has links to reviews, manuals, software, files, icons and logos, you name it:

    http://www.hifi-remote.com/wiki/index.php?title=Getting_started_with_Xsight_and_Nevo

    I see the price has gone up. Maybe the word is finally getting around. Even $19 is still a killer deal.

    As far as ergonomics, the batteries counter balance the top, so it's pretty even. It's also pretty chunky which does put some people off. I'd start with just one to see if you like it. The more expensive C3 is much thinner. I have several of those as well. They add a touchscreen, rechargeable battery and charging base and RF capability. If you really need the peanut shape, the OARUSB04G is a good alternative, though not nearly as feature rich as the Nevo.

    Multiple Tivo addresses are super easy on Nevo. When you configure it, just pick the address from a dropdown box and save each as a distinct device, i.e., Tivo 0, Tivo 1, Tivo 2, etc., or rename however you wish.

    Game console control is a big topic, but here are the highlights as they apply to Nevo. All Xboxes (One, 360, etc.) can be controlled out of the box.

    Playstation depends on the model and the capabilities of your TV. PS3 can be controlled for the most part via TV commands and Bravia Sync (HDMI-CEC) or via a 3rd party IR dongle (Nyko, Logitech, IR4PS3, etc.). PS4 is harder. An IR remote can pretty much only control it via CEC if your TV is capable. If you absolutely must have PS4 control, Harmony is a better option, although still not a very good one. Users complain that even Harmony's PS4 control is terrible and so limited that it's essentially useless. But at $100-$350 for a decent Harmony hub based model, it would be cheaper to buy a stand-alone, IR controlled Bluray player instead of using the PS4. Best option is to use your PS4 for games and do all your disc playback and streaming on something else.
     
  15. Aug 23, 2016 #55 of 124
    tivoyahoo

    tivoyahoo New Member

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    Nice - good looking wiki. I figured based on your posts, you were the man to ask. Thanks :up: First thing I notice is win10 support, so even though it's discontinued, it's still up to date / has a following it sounds like.
    yes, kind of a nobrainer just to replace the old dvr1-2 slide switch peanuts I'm still using to control more than one tivo and are way past worn out - these guys:
    https://s.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/10/series3vstivohd_sm20.jpg

    And I know there is a 3 page "Best Universal Remote for Tivo?" thread:
    http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10971981
    I just haven't read it. but for $19, seems like a no brainer.

    So then the other thing I noticed was the jp1 and it brought back old memories of some radio shack rf remotes that I could program with a custom serial to jp1 cable. long time ago, but I think it was this one:
    http://www.remotecentral.com/ureview/photos/152117.jpg

    but my girlfriend at the time hated it. too wide / bulky for her hand especially compared to the narrow middle of the peanut. So that was somewhat of a fail since I still ended up with numerous remotes on the table and not an all in one solution. and couldn't put the components behind cabinet doors with rf since she wanted the ir peanut. And today, the even smaller rf peanut is more well liked (especially under 12 age) and hard to compete with as far as my trying to get adoption by others to try to move to move to something bigger. so it may be just me, but that's ok because the peanuts can stay rf paired.
    thanks, found a good picture of the C2 & C3 in one hand:
    https://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/09/nevoc3c21_md.jpg
    thanks, looks like that retails for $40. may wind up in my mix too as middle ground / hybrid between peanut and a bigger C2.
    :up:
    ok, but the console isn't my biggest concern, more about the htpc side and hoping to integrate that. PS/4 could be part of the mix if I get PS vue service. but the game controller and 2 hands feels very unnatural to me. so if I can navigate with a remote that's better. and it would be ps/4 not 3. but the tv's have cec, although are there multiple versions of cec? not sure if they have latest.

    but xbox one is in the running due to the silicon dust app - waiting to see how reviews on that come in. and will be following like adessmith posted. And nvidia shield as well is in running, nice price and can integrate with Sage, but will it run the games the gamer wants to play? One is Fallout 4 and I think she said that doesn't run on Shield. I'm not up on the games. but shield sounds like a nice client, waiting to hear mcarlson's review. although if there were some less expensive android clients that would work with sage and Plex that would be nice. And then I wouldn't care about the gaming side integrating in and just add xbox/ps/4 on their own. but if shield had the right games I could see getting a couple of those potentially and integrating the gaming with the tv/streaming side.

    but how do I get the Nevo C2 to interact with the htpc(s) ? as far as the IR receiver side? flirc looks interesting - need to read on that. or maybe I need rf to be able control things. or a wifi app remote. That's a question mark I need to put more thought into. but depends on what hardware I add into the tivo mix.

    but from this thread I need to at least get started with a Nevo C2 - thanks. and be looking to get a non-Rovi htpc on my network with Schedules Direct, again thanks to this thread. :up:
     
  16. Aug 23, 2016 #56 of 124
    mr.unnatural

    mr.unnatural Well-Known Member

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    Ellicott...
    I never said SkipMode was the same as the 30-second skip. but Comskip and ShowAnalyzer do the same thing as SkipMode. I've been using ShowAnalyzer for as long as I've had HTPCs and it's been around long before Tivo came up with SkipMode. I stand by what I said with respect to the single post I was referring to. There isn't anything mentioned in that post that I can't do with my HTPC so I'm not sure where you're coming from. I indicated the one caveat regarding protected content and sharing between HTPCs, but that's fairly common knowledge so I'm not sure why you'd make a big deal out of it. I can share protected content using extenders, but I prefer to use standalone HTPCs so everything I mentioned is 100% true.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  17. Aug 23, 2016 #57 of 124
    tivoyahoo

    tivoyahoo New Member

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    I'm definitely keeping an open mind. and this thread is opening my eyes with lots of good info. thank you all, for the post contributions. of course Tivo and Comcast have a lot do with me looking at alternatives as mcarlson has posted. After the roamio h.264 channels issue followed immediately by Rovi data. And the comcast compression issues which is why I at least have one alternative added to my network - OTA. But then there are the plex limitations on tivo. and I don't see going to Bolt and Bolt Plus to solve that, not at $550 all in pricing. although I've got one Bolt now and it's alright. but if it was so great I wouldn't be looking for htpc alternatives to add. And a sling box as well. and maybe some sling channels and/or ps vue to get my feet wet with those / try them out to see how they look quality wise as I do have OTA as a base, although my reception is OK and could be improved with better antenna solution. but am figuring comcast is in the picture for the time being especially since they supply the broadband internet and that's probably staying the case unless there was some good alternative, which I'm not aware of at this point.

    So I foresee letting the lifetimed tivos handle DRM content and OTA going forward, especially if I can get the roamio or bolt to do dual ota & cable and I'm close on that. HarperVision has that mostly solved - see this thread:
    http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10972682#post10972682

    btw, if anyone is interested in that, looks like a tuning adapter unlocks the backdoor to dual ota & cable. although may be able to do it with just a cable card insertion timed right in Guided Setup if anyone wants to try it, although I haven't had success with motorola card and comcast and am still stuck unless I get a TA which I'm close to doing - see thread above.

    Otherwise I may see if I can move my S3 lifetime service to a premiere and let premiere take over OTA duties since that would make streaming and moving recordings around easier and faster, although I had issues with the premiere ota tuner and multipath last time I tried one and the S3 was better for signal reception. although I may be able to solve that via some antenna work. but right now there are channels missing in the rovi ota lineup so the dust has to settle on that if I'm going to solve ota capture with tivo. the fox affiliate is missing in rovi lineup :mad: although I did get NBC added which was missing but again :mad: over that.

    But as far as tuner for cable, is SiliconDust prime the way to go, regardless of what I pair it with - Sage, WMC or something else? And again DRM really isn't a concern, but if it works on a htpc then great, but not an absolute necessity. the tivos handle DRM and I'm on comcast and they don't flag much - only premiums. Or is Ceton a candidate? or some other cable card device or tuner card? and I don't necessarily need 3 tuners that prime offers, since this is a first step supplement to my tivo network where I am good on tuners. So a dual tuner option is probably fine. although I'm seeing a used Prime on local craigslist asking $75 so if they'll come down on price that's probably tough to beat and a no brainer. but...

    how dirt cheap? something like this $35 infinitv 4 ?
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/322232913706

    Or is it worth it to pay more for SD? advantages to Ceton besides price? Or do I want the external ceton boxes, not the internal card? And does Ceton work with Sage? for that matter, am I locked into Windows with Ceton? As I'm considering Sage on linux. Or is OS only a concern for the internal tuner card where you need the right drivers and that means Windows 7? I'm fine with Windows 7 and WMC, although I prefer a linux dedicated htpc solution, but not if it means hassles like driver issues. want to set it and forget it mostly, likely mr. unnatural was talking about in the thread. not continual tinkering. and if there is a linux sage configuration already set for silicon dust, then I'd lean that way.
     
  18. Aug 23, 2016 #58 of 124
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    Not really. TiVo uses actual humans to mark the commercials so they're much more accurate then programs that scan the video looking for black frames.
     
  19. Aug 23, 2016 #59 of 124
    keenanSR

    keenanSR Well-Known Member

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    And the way Comcast squeezes in its own ads there are often no black frames at all.
     
  20. Aug 23, 2016 #60 of 124
    HarperVision

    HarperVision TiVo's Italian Cuz!

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    I have had success every time I have used a cablecard AND a TA to get my Roamio Basic, Roamio OTA and Bolt ALL to do dual, concurrent OTA antenna and cable simultaneously. It doesn't only take a TA to kick it in. A cablecard will do. I don't even think it's a "back door", it's just in the TiVo UI from the Premiere 2 tuner and older days, there waiting to be utilized.

    I found my original thread that I started back in 2014 after I discovered this and it may uncover some new timing of how and when to do it to kick in:

    http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=522302&highlight=cable+ota+at+the+same+time

     

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