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wifi bolt to mini via moca question

Discussion in 'TiVo Bolt DVR/Streamer' started by kendq, Aug 9, 2018.

  1. Aug 9, 2018 #1 of 26
    kendq

    kendq New Member

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    I know the Mini cannot connect to the bolt via wifi because of streaming speed over wifi and thus has the moca option. what I did not realize is if the Bolt hooks up on wifi you cannot activate moca unless connected to Ethernet. don't know why that is (if you cant stream out side your network the mini only uses wifi for updates) . I just bought this setup for my daughter and her house has no Ethernet wiring but does have RG6 throughout. Does anyone has a workaround? (by the way this is a OTA setup so the cable is being used for antenna signal and the router is in the wrong corner of the house)
     
  2. Aug 9, 2018 #2 of 26
    fcfc2

    fcfc2 Well-Known Member

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    Without a diagram of your wiring, other options include using a separate MoCA adapter nearby your router, or possibly some kind of powerline equipment nearby your router and mini....MoCA seems like the better option.
    Motorola Bonded 2.0 MoCA Adapter for Ethernet over Coax
     
  3. Aug 9, 2018 #3 of 26
    tapokata

    tapokata Active Member

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    Is there a coax outlet near the router? You could then use a Motorola MM1000 as noted above, to bridge traffic from the router on to the coax. The MM1000 connects via coax to your plant, and an ethernet cable connects the MM1000 to the router. The Bolt is then set to use MoCa, joining a network (not creating). As the Mini can't create a network, it will simply join in.

    You won't need to run wifi on the Bolt from that point, and in fact, you can use the Bolt's ethernet port as a bridge, to cable other devices that would benefit from a fast wired connection, rather than using WiFi.

    Running an OTA antenna with MoCA on the same coax plant is not an issue, as MoCA and OTA signals use different frequencies, but travel on the same cable. You -will- need to add a POE filter, typically installing it on the input side of the first splitter where the down-lead from the antenna splits off to the other drop locations. A suitable filter is included in the box with the MM1000. The filter blocks MoCA frequencies from broadcasting out of your antenna; while at the same time the reflectance created strengthens the MoCA signal.
     
  4. Aug 9, 2018 #4 of 26
    kendq

    kendq New Member

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    Its my daughter house but the internet cable comes just inside the corner of the house thru the wall right to the router. about 20 ft (from where the internet cable enters the house) away is a junction box on the outside of the house with a spliter in it and a coaxial cable for each room( I think it was wired when they built the house). I have the antenna feeding into the spliter. and yes I already installed moca filter. I think I will have to figure how to cat5 from the router to a coax output

    Thanks for all your help and making me aware of the MM1000, I may end up needing it

    kendq
     
  5. tapokata

    tapokata Active Member

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    Sacramento, CA
    Is the internet service coming over coaxial cable, or is it an ethernet connection to the router?

    If you can pull a coax cable from the junction box into the room where the router resides, you're almost home. (Conversely, if you can run an ethernet cable from the router to a coax jack location- or to the Bolt itself, that would work as well). If any of the cables from the junction box are running down through the wall into a crawlspace or basement, it may not be all that difficult to fish a new cable run along side of an existing cable into the crawlspace, and then pull it to a location under the room where the router is located.

    With the right tools, coax is easier to much easier to terminate than cat5e or cat6.
     
  6. kendq

    kendq New Member

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    the internet has its own cable , they drilled a hole thru the kitchen wall and the router is right there in the corner on its own cable. my concern is running moca , OTA, and internet on the same cable, I remember in my search seeing how that wont work because the OTA and internet can use the same freq.
     
  7. JoeKustra

    JoeKustra in the other Alabama TCF Club

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    Maybe your cable modem can show you the frequencies it is using? Try 192.168.100.1 in your browser. It might show the status page.
     
  8. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    That’s an entirely appropriate concern. MoCA can coexist with either OTA or cable, but OTA and cable use overlapping frequencies and so cannot share coax.

    Is there any other coax outlet, as well, at or very near that location, ideally one that is or can be connected to the shared RG6 coax running through the house?
     
  9. fcfc2

    fcfc2 Well-Known Member

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    One task will be to get a MoCA adapter connected to the OTA/house coax network but you will need to get Ethernet from the router/gateway to the MoCA adapter's Ethernet port.
    You will need a MoCA filter or a diplexer to prevent your MoCA frequencies from going back up to the antenna. You could then just connect the Bolt via MoCA, no need to run Ethernet to it in this situation.
     
  10. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Yeah, that’s a bit of a bummer; TiVo (in the person of Ira Bahr) mentioned many moons ago that their engineers were looking into allowing MoCA/wireless bridging (see here), but nothing ever came of it. Regardless, its absence is not a showstopper, even if a full MoCA setup for you is determined as not possible.

    It sounds like you’re well versed in the possible options, and I’m inferring that MoCA connectivity is certainly possible via the shared OTA-connected coax between the BOLT and Mini locations. So now the question is whether this shared coax plant extends to the router location in the kitchen (separate from the dedicated cable coax run to the modem).
    • If it does, then a MoCA adapter at the router location would be used to bridge between the router LAN and the "antenna" coax plant, effectively the MoCA access point, establishing your MoCA network;

      Alternatively, do you have Ethernet access extended to any other location in the house besides the immediate vicinity of the router? If so, the same MoCA adapter approach would apply, assuming the location also has a coax outlet connecting to the shared coax plant.

    • If it does NOT, then you'd be looking to use either Powerline or Wi-Fi to bridge a connection between the router and the BOLT, connecting the BOLT via Ethernet (either directly to the Powerline/Wi-Fi bridging adapter or via a network switch), thereby allowing use of the BOLT's built-in MoCA bridge to establish the MoCA network. As you suggested, the heavy lifting between the BOLT and Mini(s) will occur over the wired MoCA segment, while the Powerline/wireless segment will need to support less demanding, more resilient operations (Internet streaming, TiVo service connections, TiVoToGo-ish offloads).

      Note that if the BOLT location isn't optimal for locating the Powerline/wireless bridging adapter, you could opt for any other location in the house where a coax connection to the shared coax plant is available. The only difference would be that you would need to use a standalone MoCA adapter at this location to establish your MoCA network, rather than the BOLT's built-in bridge. (The BOLT would be configured as a MoCA client.)
    Either way...
    • You'd need a "PoE" MoCA filter to keep the MoCA signals from reaching and emanating from the antenna;

    • You'd want to provide more details on exactly how the coax plant interconnects (ditto @fcfc2 above) --- to each wall outlet and device and back to the OTA antenna signal source and through what components (splitters, amps, filters, joiners, ...) -- to be able to evaluate whether there are any speed bumps to a solid MoCA setup, and to suggest the best configuration.

    • Also critical in planning the final setup is understanding your intent for the OTA antenna signals. As regards the TiVo equipment, only the BOLT needs access to the raw antenna signal; the BOLT will do all TV tuning on behalf of the Mini's and stream this content to the Mini's via their LAN connection.

      Do you have other needs for the OTA antenna signal, such as directly feeding the antenna signal to one or more TV's in the house, as an alternative or backup to the TiVo setup, or because you want to be able to have synchronized live TV playback available across multiple TVs?
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  11. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    I'm guessing this is a suggestion to evaluate the current frequencies in use for the cable Internet connection, and that it would be theoretically possible for the cable Internet and OTA antenna signals to share a coax segment if none of the channels/frequencies carrying signals overlapped.

    Some of the issues with this approach, aside from the hassle of evaluating the overlaps, include:
    • the cable company can arbitrarily change the channels in use for the upstream/downstream Internet signal;

    • most digital cable companies these days still send all their cable TV programming down the coax line, even if a customer isn't subscribed to TV; the TV signals are still present on the cable coax, the customer just needs to subscribe to the service and have a box authorized and able to decrypt the programming.

    • the cable signals and OTA signals leaking through to each other could be problematic, though the cable company is likely to be quicker to respond than the FCC.
     
  12. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Or, yeah, as you'd already said ...
    ... make an Ethernet connection available at one of the coax outlets connected to the shared antenna-connected coax plant. (The BOLT can be the MoCA bridge if Ethernet is available at that location; otherwise, a standalone MoCA adapter will do and both the BOLT and Mini will be MoCA clients.)
     
  13. JoeKustra

    JoeKustra in the other Alabama TCF Club

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    So much to think about, so little brain. Good points.
     
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  14. kendq

    kendq New Member

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    Jan 12, 2005
    Thanks to all the suggestions, I just talked to my daughter (lives 3 states away) and I think on my next trip I am going to have to run cat5 back out the hole with internet cable , then string along the house under the siding to the 2nd floor and drill a small hole to enter a bedroom near the coax. when I bought this for her I never realized when all you guys said you can't connect a mini via wifi (I do read and have learned from your posts), I kept thinking of the immediate connection not the Bolt to the home network, oh well I am sure I will get there and again thanks for all your help.
     
  15. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    The wireless bridge is still an option, short-term...

    Something similar to the following; just need to acquire the wireless bridge.

    wifi_moca_bridge.png
    ... at least until if/when you can string some Cat5/6.
     
  16. kendq

    kendq New Member

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    Jan 12, 2005
    That is also a good temporary option, but I have heard those are a little unreliable and she does like her netflix (although she could use the apps on her smart tv) your drawing was exact and yes i even have the moca filter
     
  17. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    I'll leave it to others (see @JoeKustra) to speak to wireless reliability, since I stick to wired Ethernet or MoCA for my TiVo's, but a number of TCFers report success using wireless even for Mini whole home connectivity ... let alone the less demanding configuration suggested above, where the wireless connection only services Internet streaming apps and TiVo service connections. The more bandwidth-intensive TiVo-to-TiVo traffic would be isolated to the wired MoCA segment.

    Conceivably, if the BOLT will remain wireless until your Cat5/6 upgrade, the above suggested configuration could improve the BOLT's connectivity, assuming a wireless bridge with better performance than the BOLT's internal wireless is chosen.* Again, I have to defer to others Re: specific recommendations, such as >these< -- though I'd note that if the suggested devices have been found sufficient for Mini whole home connectivity, then they'd be more than up to the task of servicing just the router/Internet traffic, especially for such a limited number of TiVo boxes even if streaming simultaneously.

    ---
    * Similar to your suggestion to stringing Cat5/6 to a location with a coax outlet, you could also locate the wireless bridge in another room away from the BOLT, if this location has a connection to the shared coax plant but also offers improved wireless throughput. For example:

    wifi_moca_bridge2.png
    p.s. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any single device capable of being both a wireless bridge and MoCA bridge. There are a number of MoCA wireless access points that allow use of MoCA for better wireless coverage, but I don't believe any of those products allow for reconfiguring the wireless function as a bridge rather than an access point.
     
  18. JoeKustra

    JoeKustra in the other Alabama TCF Club

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    I heard my name dropped. :) I saw your diagram and have one question to start: what's the model of your router? To achieve 99% reliability I have a very good router. Sadly, my streaming via a Mini has been limited to YouTube which works great after recent changes by TiVo. It is true that using the Mini with real time TV is the hardest, followed by a recording from its host. My house is old and small. I'm spread over two floors and several rooms. My cable modem, router and wired Roamio are in one room. I have two Roamio, three Mini, two computers and other stuff that all runs via wireless bridges. Every morning I watch TV on a Mini in my kitchen. It uses a wireless bridge shared with the smart TV it uses.

    So, what's your budget? BTW, is that smart TV using wireless too?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
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  19. snerd

    snerd Active Member

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    The WCB3000N brings all three together in one box. Seems to me there is a good chance it would work, and pretty cheap as an experiment.
     
  20. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Wireless it does; I'm just not sure it can be configured as a wireless bridge (and mine is 6 hours away).
     

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