Why no 1080P on the HDTiVo?

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by BlackBetty, Sep 6, 2007.

  1. Sep 6, 2007 #1 of 44
    BlackBetty

    BlackBetty I

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    Anyone? Seems like 1080P is the big selling point these days. I would hate to see the following scenerio....

    Person dishes out large sum of money to buy 1080P HDTV. Then heads over to look at the S3 and TiVoHD DVR's. On the box he notices 1080i, and says to himself, no way am I going to accept a lower quality picture when my TV can handle 1080P.

    now I am not saying this person is a rational person. I would be willing to bet that 99% of the people in this world couldn't tell the video quality difference from 1080P and 1080i. But after dropping a large wad of cash on a TV, I am not expecting people to be rational.
     
  2. Sep 6, 2007 #2 of 44
    MickeS

    MickeS Active Member

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    Since TV is not broadcast at anything higher than 1080i, it seems pointless to have the TiVo output it at 1080p to me (might as well let the TV do the conversion). Also, many TVs don't accept 1080p even if they output it.
     
  3. Sep 6, 2007 #3 of 44
    demon

    demon BURNINATOR

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    Because there is no standard in ATSC (to my understanding) to transmit 1080p signals over the air. It could support it, I suppose, but with no content to actually provide in 1080p, there's no need to spend more on parts for that functionality. Same reason TiVo will probably never go past supporting HDMI 1.1(a?) - for its purposes, there's no need.
     
  4. Sep 6, 2007 #4 of 44
    Sy-

    Sy- New Member

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    Yea this question was asked a lot when everyone was buying their S3 Tivos late last year...
     
  5. Sep 6, 2007 #5 of 44
    afiggatt

    afiggatt New Member

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    Actually, there is a ATSC format standard for 1080/24p and 1080/30p broadcasts, but no one is using it as it is not practical. Easier to convert the 24p film material to 60i through 3:2 pulldown and then let the TV deinterleave it (if the TV can do it correctly).
     
  6. Sep 6, 2007 #6 of 44
    jtown

    jtown New Member

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    What about the people who would like to do a 1080p slideshow? Last time I checked, the pictures all got scaled down to 480p then back up to the display resolution. Sure would be nice if those network apps were able to run at 720p, 1080i, and 1080p.
     
  7. Sep 6, 2007 #7 of 44
    jtkohl

    jtkohl Member

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    HME apps can run in 720p, look at TiVo's new Photo application, or Galleon.
    But yeah, it'd be nicer if the HME could do 1080p.
     
  8. Sep 6, 2007 #8 of 44
    TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

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    The 1080p Support on TV's is for the full support of HD-DVD and Blu-ray, as well as the XBOX & Playstation 3 game systems, as well as those who wish to connect compatable computers to them.

    Broadcast support of 1080p content won't start being available until sometime after 2010.

    TGC
     
  9. Sep 7, 2007 #9 of 44
    Revolutionary

    Revolutionary Too sleepy for TV...

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    For 90% of purposes/content there is no functional or discernable difference between 1080i and 1080p when displayed on a 1080p screen.
     
  10. davecramer74

    davecramer74 New Member

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    tivo's main function is for broadcast tv. Noone does 1080p, so whats the point. Ya it would be nice for pictures, but im going to go out on a limb and say that most didnt pay 300 bucks to display pic's on their tv.
     
  11. rainwater

    rainwater Active Member

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    That is a highly inaccurate statement.
     
  12. legendarybc

    legendarybc SDV is FUBAR'ed

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  13. Revolutionary

    Revolutionary Too sleepy for TV...

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    THAT is a highly useless statement.

    If I'm inaccurate, please enlighten me.

    FWIW, the 10% not captured by my statement reflects the difficulty some sets can have with deinterlacing/deinterleaving 1080i/60 content to 1080p/30 display. These include highly geometric frames and scenes that involve only certain kinds of rapid movement (not all rapid movement, as some believe). But these types of frames account for less than 10% of televised content (most of which is remarkable static if you ever stop to consider it).

    However, if a 1080p set properly deinterlaces and deinterleaves 1080i fields, then you would be hard pressed (indeed, I'm not sure it's even theoretically possible) to differentiate between the same image from a 1080i sources vs. a 1080p source. But let's not forget, you would have the same artifacting and tearing on a 720p screen that does not handle the fields properly, reinforcing that it is the individual TV and not the format that makes all the difference.

    Unless you are an irrational 1080p fanboy, in which case, you will insist that the measurement is closer to 20% unnoticeable, 80% noticeable. If that's the case, then I will permit you your harmless delusions.
     
  14. bkdtv

    bkdtv New Member

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    With very rare exception, there is no 1080p30 sourced content on television.

    High-definition content on 1080i channels is acquired in 1080p24 or 1080i30 (also known as 60i).

    Only a handful of high-end displays can perform inverse telecine to properly detect and deinterlace 1080p24 content in a 1080i30 carrier**. Content acquired or telecined in 1080p24 represents about 90% of the programming on high-definition channels. The inability to properly deinterlace this content results in combing, jaggies, moire, flickering, and a softer picture with moving images. Silicon Optix has a nice introductory video on the subject.

    With the 60i video used for live broadcasts and sports, you have alternating fields sent every 1/60 of a second. You can't deinterlace this into 1080p30 because these fields are not halves of the same frame. They are fields from separate frames. In order to create a progressive image for display, the display must interpolate the remaining information for every 60p frame based on the information in adjacent fields. This process is known as motion-adaptive video deinterlace. Silicon Optix has a video tutorial on that subject too. Most 2006 and 2007 displays will do this, with varying levels of quality (most models use region-based processing while some higher-end models do at it the pixel level).

    I have no idea what video IC is used by that "Pro" DirecTV DVR, but if it uses video circuit from Silicon Optix or Anchor Bay, then it should reliably and correctly detect 1080p24 content within a 1080i30 carrier as necessary to reproduce the original 1080p24 source, upon which it could apply pull-down to create 1080p60 output. These solutions also implement the best available per-pixel, motion-adaptive deinterlace for 60i broadcasts like sports.

    ** Modern displays do perform inverse telecine on 480i signals, just not 1080i as far more processing power is required. Inverse telecine is the same method used to obtain 480p output from DVDs.
     
  15. morac

    morac Cat God TCF Club

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    Shouldn't the new sets out that support 120Hz refresh and fps be able to display these without having to do any inverse telecine? That's basically one of their selling points?
     
  16. bkdtv

    bkdtv New Member

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    No.

    Ideally, a 120Hz display should detect the 24p source within the 60i signal, perform inverse telecine to obtain that 24p source, and then multiply each frame by five for display at 120Hz. This would eliminate cadence-based judder.

    The 120Hz LCDs released by Sharp and Samsung earlier this year cannot do that. Instead, these displays just treat 24p sources as 60i video. They apply motion-adaptive video deinterlace to create a 60p signal, interpolating an extra frame between each pair to create a 120p signal. This helps minimize source-based judder, but does nothing to eliminate the annoying cadence-based judder.

    Sony has several new 120Hz LCDs and SXRD displays slated for release this fall, and many hope that Sony will be among the first to 'get this right.' We know that the new Sonys will take a 24p output from a Blu-ray player and repeat each frame five times to eliminate cadence-based judder, but it is unknown whether they will be able to reliably detect the 24p content on high-definition 1080i channels. This requires substantially more processing power than you find in most HDTVs today.
     
  17. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

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    The main point everyone is trying to make....

    Is that currently as of Septermber 7th, 2007 that there currently isn't source material being broadcast that is 1080p.

    Even if there was... a few here are claiming that most HDTV's currently on the market can't properly show 1080p content.

    As far as being able to tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p content. I think that all depends on your source material & the HDTV you watch it on.

    I have both blu-ray and HD-DVD. Depending on the movie I am watching. Sometimes I can tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p, other times I can not.

    I know one thing. I can not tell any difference in picture quality between the Blu-ray and HD-DVD. I rented both versions of "300" and could not tell the difference between either Blu-ray or HD-DVD picture quality. (User interface & featurs of each were different though)

    In time Tivo's will eventually have full 1080p capability. Just give it time.

    TGC
     
  18. dkwong

    dkwong New Member

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    Has anyone noticed that the front panel of the TivoHD has a light for 1080p output? Perhaps it will support 1080p with TTCB and a software update.
     
  19. bkdtv

    bkdtv New Member

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    The chip in the TivoHD can output 1080p24.

    It cannot output 1080p60.
     
  20. dkwong

    dkwong New Member

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    Union City, CA
    There's no such thing as 1080p/60 in the ATSC specification.
     

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