What do you think Premiere Elite should have?

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by callejon, Oct 19, 2011.

  1. atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    I think I will comment I the lack of OTA tuners in the Elite and the potential demand for a 4 tuner OTA DVR.

    First I will say I am OTA only and second I currently have 3 HD TiVos with 6 tuners and 5.25 TB of storage used for OTA only.

    As for the Elite being digital cable only, it makes complete sense as TiVo developed it for cable companies and that is the only reason it is available to the Stand Alone market. To keep costs down it was built on the Premiere (Series 4) platform and first announced as the Premiere Q and was to only be available from cable companies. At that time there was some discussion about what it would have taken to put 8 tuners in it (4 cable & 4 OTA) those in the know (not me) seemed to indicate there would be significant cost issues.

    Now onto if OTA user would like or could use a 4 tuner DVR. Well from my point of view YES. I often have 3-4 things recording at the same time, however it is very rare to have more than 4.

    If TiVo thought there was a significant enough of a market for an OTA 4 tuner DVR the way to deliver it would be to take the Elite replace the 4 cable tuners with 4 OTA tuners, remove the cable card, Not THX certify it and sell it for $199 plus service.

    But my honest opinion is the Premiere is the best option for OTA users. If they want more than 2 tuners or have multiple TVs, multiple DVRs make more sense to me than one 4 tuner DVR.

    Thanks,

    Thanks,
     
  2. mattack

    mattack Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you that conflicts are MORE likely due to more sub-channels, but I completely disagree that they are rare.

    Even though I am a cable subscriber, the VAST majority of what I actually watch is broadcast channels, which I happen to receive via my cable. (Yes, even though I also have other channels, I actually got cable originally to get better overall reception of my OTA channels, especially since receiving some of my channels via antenna would require turning the antenna 180 degrees in the other direction.)

    MANY days of the week, I have several shows opposite each other in prime time that I want to record.. and with the timeslot games, I need padding. Even ignoring padding, 4 tuners would "suffice". (PBS shows re-air, so being able to record Fox, NBC, CBS, ABC in some situations would be great..) But since padding _is_ needed, 4 tuners actually isn't quite enough.
     
  3. wmcbrine

    wmcbrine Well-Known Mumbler

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    Probably. The rest of us know what to expect from TiVo. :)

    TiVo couldn't have added that. Apart from the fact that they both run on a Linux kernel, the TiVo platform is very unlike typical Android devices.
     
  4. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    I would have had conflicts all the time in the late 80s and 90s. I had several VCRs set to record my programs. Some I would let record for 30 minutes then I would switch tapes and start watching the shows on another VCR. At one point I had six or seven VCRs setup for all my recordings. And back then it was needed. Since if you missed a show you weren't going to be getting it anywhere else until they possibly showed a rerun of it later in the year.
     
  5. lew

    lew Well-Known Member

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    Shows on cable are aired multiple times, sometimes on multiple channels, over at least a week.

    OTA shows are generally broadcast once, sometimes twice. Three OTA shows air at the same time. People might just watch the third show live and not even bother setting up a SP. Tivo might not know about conflicts.

    I don't think conflicts have anything to do with the decision. I think the issue is price and availability of components.
     
  6. rainwater

    rainwater Active Member

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    I'm sure price is the biggest factor. But also, their are some hardcore ota users here. But in general, TiVo knows how small of a market their is for 4 tuners. Compared to cable, there just isn't as big desire for 4 tuners for the majority of people. I'm sure someone here is going to to say how much they need 4 tuners but that is not a reality for most OTA users.
     
  7. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    good points.

    I'd agree with the bottom line, its-

    price/availability of components vs size of the market/price consumers willing to pay.

    First people need to understand that it's apparently impractical with currently existing chip sets to do anything more than 4 tuners. You can do 4 of cable OR 4 of the OTA, 2+2, or 3+1, but inside the box it's just 4 total. So tivo can't just toss in 4 OTA tuners to an elite giving it 8 tuners. They need to decide on selling 4+0, 0+4, or some combo of 3 and 1.

    Second,m this isn't the first thread at all with the arguments from the OTA people. The bottom line is the size of the market is multiple times larger for cable households than OTA only households. Beyond that the size segments of each willing to pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars for for such a box is bigger in the cable domain. Google the numbers yourselves-I posted a couple links in earlier threads- there's statistics on the web about the %'s of households. And with those statistics there are some demographic numbers. While many OTA only might be the well off (like those of us in these forums likely are) and made a choice , there are plenty who are OTA only because they can't afford a cable bill not because they choose not to. There's no segment at all of the cable market that has pays a monthly cable tv bill because they can't afford to have FREE OTA.

    So if you have to choose which 4+0 to try first then cable wins. AND that's IGNORING that RCN, Suddenling, ETC are going to be jump starting the whole product line- further increasing the economies of scale or flat out subsidizing TiVo's R&D, manufacturing, stock keeping, etc, etc

    With the above facts it's just silly to think that Tivo would try a 4 tuner OTA box FIRST before trying a 4 tuner cable box.

    The OTA people rooting for the box to fail so tivo on cable have it all wrong. They should hope it's a giant success so that tivo thinks it's worth a shot at selling a follow up 4 tuner OTA only box.
     
  8. jrtroo

    jrtroo Chill- its just TV

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    best comment in the thread.
     
  9. jfh3

    jfh3 Active Member

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    MichaelK - terrific post!
     
  10. buscuitboy

    buscuitboy Member

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    For the next generation TiVo DVR and in the future, I wonder if they could simply sell a 4 tuner box that has the OPTION of how you want those tuners to be distributed; either OTA or digital cable. The antenna hookup could be there, but when subscribing, you simply have to state whether your setup will be OTA or cable customer. Then TiVo can push the approriate software/firmware update to your box via an internet connect.

    If its digital cable based software/firmware, then the ANTENNA hookup is simply fully disabled. If OTA software, then the cable card slot is disabled instead. This way, also satisfy a much wider audience without having to have two totally different designed DVRs. One box covers all options. Just a thought & theory.
     
  11. RickL66

    RickL66 New Member

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    You saying that if I had two elites, I can transfer copy protected shows unrestricted between the two? If that was the case, it would be a very expensive upgrade to get two elites with a total of 8 tuners and lifetime at the tune of $2000. My biggest pisser is that I can't even transfer shows I recorded in the family room and watch in the bedroom with my current S3s, unless it was from a local network channel (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX).
     
  12. rainwater

    rainwater Active Member

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    No, that isn't possible. The tuners are specific to what they can tune. You can't control that with software.
     
  13. jfh3

    jfh3 Active Member

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    When MRS is enabled (it isn't yet), yes. You will be able to do that between Premieres (Elite or not), but almost certainly not to/from the S3.
     
  14. Resist

    Resist Well-Known Member

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    Figures Tivo would say something like that. You only need to get more than two channels to see that a Tivo with more than two tuners is a huge benefit. And very few people receive two or less air channels.
     
  15. rainwater

    rainwater Active Member

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    What TiVo said is true though. There was never much of a demand for more than 2 tuners on TiVo's analog TiVos. And OTA will usually have less channels than a analog cable lineup. Like I have said before, this forum does not represent the customer base.
     
  16. Resist

    Resist Well-Known Member

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    That's because they were analog. Things are different now.


    And as I said, most people have more than two air channels. So a DVR with a recording capability of more than two tuners is something most people would want. Maybe we need a poll for OTA users to confirm this.

    All I know is that I like the ability of my Tivo to have the ability of OTA, it gives me an option should I drop my Cable service in the future. Does Tivo assume most people get two or less air channels? If Tivo never did OTA then this would not be a topic for discussion.
     
  17. rainwater

    rainwater Active Member

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    So if there are more than 2 channels, a 4 tuner DVR is needed? I don't follow that logic. I'm sure a poll will tell you that every user wants a 20 tuner DVR. But that doesn't mean that is needed. Fact is, most OTA users aren't even using DVRs. The one's that do aren't likely to spend a lot of money on a DVR. So it isn't in TiVo's best interest to focus on a market that doesn't even show up on the radar compared to cable companies. They already have provided a suitable dvr that works with both (the premiere). I don't see them changing that configuration to focus on OTA users.
     
  18. Resist

    Resist Well-Known Member

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    I only said 2 channels in response to your statement where Tivo said there wasn't much demand for more than 2 tuners. Do you follow the logic now? I could have just as easily said 4 channels instead of 2, if that helps you.


    True, but we're talking about OTA Tivo users. It's pointless to post facts about non Tivo households.


    Look, the fact is simple, Tivo released the Elite as a Cable only device to solidify their business with big Cable. This is good for them but bad for the consumer in an economy where people are cutting back on their Cable services. Yes this doesn't effect all consumers as many will stick with Cable TV no matter how much it cost them each month.
     
  19. rainwater

    rainwater Active Member

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    It's not pointless if we are discussing TiVo creating a 4 tuner OTA TiVo. As I said, there's no market for it. TiVo is spending their time where there is a market.
     
  20. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    (emphasis added by me) that's not a fact at all. that's your opinion laced with conspiracy theory.

    Fact is cable is subsidizing the device for tivo and tivo is taking advantage of their cable partners to give them the ability to develop the the elite for retail sale.

    Th "fact" I see is that it would be patently stupid for tivo to build a 4 tuner OTA only box first.

    And are you seriously going to argue that a large group of people are going to spend 500 on an elite and perhaps another 500 on lifetime service to "cut back"? Fact is, people willing to spend $1,000 to watch TV in this economy aren't people who need to cut back, they might feel like cutting back but they probably aren't exactly the poor folks going to the local welfare office to inquire about food stamps. The people that really NEED to cut back don't have a grand to toss around for fun at the moment. Tivo's market isn't people who need to cut back (very few niche businesses aim for the low margin end of things)- tivo is looking for the people willing to toss around fat cash for a luxury, people with a lot of money to watch tv, you know like people that shop at Magnolia and the like . (oh wait I think i just realized why they sell the elite there and not the walmart :D )

    Any Tivo is bad for any budget conscious consumer. Complaining about the lack of an OTA elite is bad for budget conscious people is like arguing that the a new German SUV is bad for the consumer because it needed premium gasoline instead of regular.

    Bottom line- tivo decided they couldn't build 2 different 4 tuner models to start. They picked the one that they thought makes the most sense and sadly for OTA folks it is most logical to start off with a cable only model.
     

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