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Westworld "Kiksuya" S2E8 6/10/2018

Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by astrohip, Jun 11, 2018.

  1. dswallow

    dswallow Save the Moderatоr TCF Club

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    It happens often enough here (TCF) that someone criticizing something about a show they are watching ends up asked "why they keep watching it" as if they're not entitled to watch a show and have critical comments about it and should only be posting how great everything is. That's what I took your comment to be -- when you asked me why I still watched it, implying I should stop doing so since I was criticizing it. And that behavior I find extremely obnoxious.
     
  2. gossamer88

    gossamer88 UHDTV Snob

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    Da boogie...
    So I did a re-watch with the mrs who had not seen it yet. I had a long day the first night and equated my sleepiness to being bored by this episode.

    Boy was I wrong! Fully awake during dinner in the second viewing I am now blown away by this episode and it is up there as one of the best hour of television.

    I have not read this entire thread, but one thing that I absolutely loved about this episode was that things we saw and assumed now make sense.
     
  3. wprager

    wprager Well-Known Member

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    Nah. I think she wants him back and acting like a father.
     
  4. wprager

    wprager Well-Known Member

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    We prefer shows with lots of dialogue and because of this always watch with subtitles.

    This was one Android taking to another. IRL this would have taken a couple of seconds, not 50 minutes.
     
  5. pgogborn

    pgogborn Well-Known Member

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    We have yet to be told how he acted like a husband (what part he played in the death of her mother).

    We do know how he acted as a son-in-law (kept her grandfather in a prison while he descended into madness slashing his face).

    We were specifically reminded at the beginning of this episode how he acted as a brother-in-law (binding her uncle's hands, putting him naked on a horse, sending off the horse at a gallop until the horse died and he was left to blister and rant in the sun).

    There is a western Dante's Inferno and the Lakota equivalent Ghost Nation theme going on, *perhaps* the question should not be will she torture him but how she will torture him.

    Edit: I am useless at getting relationship names correct
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018 at 5:24 AM
  6. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    Yeah, the thought that she just wants him back as a Daddy baffles me. I don't see anything either in her or in the way she negotiated with the Ghost Tribe that even implies that. She wants to hurt him. That seems crystal clear to me. The only thing that's not clear is the exact nature of her plan...but I'm sure she had that plan in place before she and MiB had their conversation, and she was playing him in that conversation as much as he was playing her.
     
  7. wprager

    wprager Well-Known Member

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    Her grandfather was dead, not imprisoned.

    Guess we'll see.
     
  8. dianebrat

    dianebrat wait.. I did what? TCF Club

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    That is not at all what happened, those were repeated copies of James Delos made after he died none of those were her Grandfather, they were all copies that were specifically being tested because they degraded mentally and became unstable. If your quote is what you took out of that episode then you're effectively watching a very different show than the rest of us.
     
  9. RGM1138

    RGM1138 I wanna Rock TCF Club

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    I suppose you could say he was both dead and imprisoned. Depending on when you observed him.

    Like Schrodinger‘s cat.

    ;)
     
  10. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    Except in his case he remains both even after you observe him...
     
  11. RGM1138

    RGM1138 I wanna Rock TCF Club

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    Yeah, it’s kind of a fine line.

    :)
     
  12. pgogborn

    pgogborn Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]


    So says one of five people who liked a post doubting my claim that what Charlotte Hale asked for wasn't a flak jacket, that it was another sort of jacket entirely.

    His brain and personality were uploaded to a perl and placed in a robot body because James Delos thought that would be a way to keep him alive.

    From my seat the show is addressing questions of sentience, mortality, the cycle of life, pre-destination, free will etc. etc. that are more complex than saying James Delos died.

    She had a logo in her notebook. **So far** I haven't ruled it out that logo is associated with a facility where she believes a backup copy of her grandfather's brain and personalty is stored, that she was temporarily being nice to her father as part of her search for that facility.
     
  13. RGM1138

    RGM1138 I wanna Rock TCF Club

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    I think that’s what the show wants to be about. But, I’m still on the fence with the hosts. Are they actually sentient? Or, have they just exceeded the limits of their programming to become superbots?
    What actually defines that line of self awareness?
     
  14. pgogborn

    pgogborn Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion at the moment the show is deliberately not answering that question - although the in-show word for sentient is "awake" and several hosts self-describe and describe others as "awake".

    (revealed in this episode, Akecheta was awake before Maeve... and the maintenance crews in the Hub are repeat poor security offenders, both Akecheta and Maeve allowed themselves to be killed so that they could spy on what is going on in the Hub).

    At the moment the show issue that most intrigues me is the ages old Predestiny versus Free Will question. The hosts may be sentient but are they exercising free will? God [Ford] pre-determined that Dolores would shoot him so was she exercising free-will when she did?
     
  15. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    Although since what Maeve and Akecheta did was not known to be possible, I guess they can't be blamed too much. This is a case where there's an in-story reason for people (i.e., Ford) not communicating! :D
     
  16. RGM1138

    RGM1138 I wanna Rock TCF Club

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    I fear that at the end of this season, we’ll see Delores looking wistfully into the distance, dreaming of what’s on the other side of Land’s End.
     
  17. tivotvaddict

    tivotvaddict CreativelyChallenged

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    I think you're exactly right. Ford's "God-like" nature was explicitly and strongly portrayed in the scene where Akechuta approaches Ford in the Indian/Bear tableau. By extension, the show is raises the question of how much free will that we, as humans, really have. We think we have free will, but there are eerie similarities between what our actions and the hosts.

    For instance, the hosts are on loops, where they repeat the same behavior, over and over. We as humans do the same thing, really. One person might wake up, eat breakfast (possibly the same thing every day even), go to work, do work tasks, come home, make dinner, some choice of behavior (watch the latest game? work out? help kids with homework?), go to bed. The next day we do the same thing. How much do we follow our own loops and how much do we really have free will to break out of them?

    Or, consider how we've seen that the dialogue the hosts use was really written by someone else. How many times have we started to say something and then realize it's the same thing our mom or dad used to say? Or we parent the same way they did.

    Human belief systems are pretty well proscribed for us as well through childhood years of being raised in whatever faith or belief our family and friends are. Now obviously humans do change faith, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but the similarities between our own lives and the hosts is striking and I think the show runners and storytellers are asking us to consider those similarities.
     
  18. NorthAlabama

    NorthAlabama tabasco rules

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    the biggest obstacle on the road to a host becoming sentient i'm seeing is their struggle to distinguish between real life vs. scripted events, and current events vs. their life-like memories - it's what arnold has been struggling with all season.
     
  19. RGM1138

    RGM1138 I wanna Rock TCF Club

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    And since we’re seeing everything from an observer’s standpoint, and we’re sometimes having a hard time, how is a host ever supposed to know what’s real or not?
     
    NorthAlabama likes this.
  20. pgogborn

    pgogborn Well-Known Member

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    I will cut one of the tech's some slack, he doubted the wisdom of the decision by "the boss" to return Akecheta to the park.
    ###
    The Boss: Put him back.
    Tech: Ma'am, shouldn't we...
    The Boss: Give him the update and put him back wherever the f*** he's supposed to be... Quietly.
    ( tech sighs )
    ###

    I wonder why she told him to do it "Quietly".

    *If* Tech 2 is suggesting a 4 hour lunch pour a bucket of blame on him :)
    ###
    Tech 1: It's OK to just leave him here?
    Tech 2: It's a four-hour update. You want to babysit him? We'll come back after lunch.
    ###
     

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