Using HDMI and componet cables at the same time

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by JimParks, Aug 4, 2007.

  1. Aug 4, 2007 #1 of 10
    JimParks

    JimParks New Member

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    Can you use both a HDMI and Component cables at the same time? Where the HDMI goes to the mail TV and the component cable goes to a secondary tv, used more as a monitor.

    [Edit:8-8-07]

    The short answer is: Yes you can use both the HDMI and component outputs at the same time.
    Set up:
    Tivo Series 3 output is in native mode.
    HDMI output of the series 3 goes to a Sima VS-HD31 HEMI 3 port HDMI Switcher.
    The component output of the series 3 goes to a cheep, $250, HD Tv from Circuitcity. The tv does support all modes from 480i- 1080i.
    The HDMI output of the switch box uses a HDMI to DVI cable to feed a
    Hitachi 50v500 HD TV.
    It does not matter if the Hitachi tv is on or off. Of course the switch box is powered up so that my have something to do with it.
    I can watch analog, digital, premium channels, both analog and digital as well as HD tv on both tv's at the same time or as I said, with the HITACHI tv turned off the
    el cheepo tv still works.
    Right now my wife's series 3 is only using the composit output to feed an old 4:3 tv. In Sep. she is getting a new HD tv and it will be fed straight from the HDMI output of the series 3. I'll retest the componet out then.
    [end edit]

    Thanks
    Jim
     
  2. Aug 4, 2007 #2 of 10
    moyekj

    moyekj Well-Known Member

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    This really should be in FAQ as I have seen this asked countless times. The answer is both yes and no. No for certain channels, yes for the rest. For copy protected channels if the TV you have HDMI connected to is turned off (and therefore HDCP is disabled) then component and other outputs will not work. This is dictated by proper HDCP requirements not a Tivo design flaw. In all other cases it works fine.
     
  3. Aug 4, 2007 #3 of 10
    sfhub

    sfhub Well-Known Member

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    I think that depends on the implementation. The HDMI port can potentially stay active enough to maintain the negotiation even after the TV is shut off. Power can be supplied by the source over the HDMI cable's +5v line which was included in part to power the DDC channel before the TV was turned on.
     
  4. Aug 4, 2007 #4 of 10
    sfhub

    sfhub Well-Known Member

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    I thought about this a little bit and don't recall HDCP making such a requirement. Looking at if from a different direction, if HDCP did make this requirement, cable boxes with HDMI ports would not be able to work with HBO over component.

    Perhaps you could provide a reference. My mind is a little foggy with all the acronyms and revisions so maybe I remember wrong.

    Are there channels which TiVo S3/HD simply won't display over component if there is no HDMI cable at all?

    If there are then I can see what you are saying, but if all the channels display over component fine with no HDMI cable connected, they should be able to continue doing so even if the HDMI cable is connected but HDCP is negotiation is not complete.

    I would test it myself with my Slingbox, but while I have encrypted channels, I do not have any copy-protected channels. The Slingbox does work over component with the HDMI cable connected to a TV that is turned off, but that is consistent with what you said because I don't have access to any copy protected channels.
     
  5. Aug 4, 2007 #5 of 10
    thinny

    thinny New Member

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    Thanks for the info. Very help as I plan my whole house HD feed via baluns over cat5e.

    thinh
     
  6. Aug 5, 2007 #6 of 10
    moyekj

    moyekj Well-Known Member

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    If you have the HDMI output disconnected then component and all the outputs always work no matter about copy protection or not. The problem with most HDMI connections to TVs is the TV will not negotiate HDCP when turned off (however the Tivo recognizes the HDMI is still connected). The Tivo then sees the HDCP failure and shuts off HDMI & component outputs (actually displays a copyright message) if the foreground channels is copy protected. Being too lazy to look up the actual specs I went to Wikipedia. The quotes below don't exactly spell out why the Tivo does what it does but you can see the intent is there. dt_dc I'm sure could point you to the exact specs. In any case from personal experience and from other threads on this topic that is the behavior of the S3.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDCP
    EDIT: Here's another thread on this topic with good details:
    http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...light=viewing+not+permitted+try+another+input
    Now that I see that thread again I must make a correction: the problem is when the TV you connect to with HDMI is turned on but switched to a different input than HDMI, then the HDCP negotiation fails and the analog outputs are disabled along with HDMI. So I think with the TV off it's OK since that would be equivalent to HDMI output disconnected (though I don't know that for sure and if it applies to all TV models).
    Due to too many DRM issues I stopped using HDMI a while ago so I don't remember for sure all scenarios where HDCP failures kick in, but it was certainly enough to be annoying since I was using analog outputs of the S3 simultaneously.

    Somebody that's good at piecing all this stuff together should put a comprehensive explanation of the issues as they relate to the Tivos so that there is one place we can point to when questions arise about this... I'm not proficient or motivated enough to do it myself.
     
  7. Aug 5, 2007 #7 of 10
    sfhub

    sfhub Well-Known Member

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    I read through that thread and I didn't see anything the definitively said if HDCP negotiation fails, content that would otherwise be displayable on the component outputs needs to be shutdown, whereas just by removing the HDMI cable, that exact same content could then be displayed on the component outputs. I didn't expect to see that exact wording, just something to that effect.

    On the other hand this is the HDCP licensing agreement:
    http://www.digital-cp.com/home/HDCP_License_August_21_2005.pdf
    HDCP content only starts at the HDMI interface, thus the HDCP licensing agreement expressly makes no restrictions on other outputs (component being one of those) There is no concept of HDCP when delivering content from the cable company to the TiVo. There is the concept of copy protection of course, but that is not what the HDCP licensing agreement is referencing.

    To be clear, I'm not doubting that TiVo behaves the way you describe, I'm just doubting whether TiVo needs to behave the way you describe due to license restrictions.

    In the big picture, I can understand the rationale (but don't agree with) for why certain content might be restricted to digital outputs protected by HDCP and thus cannot be output over component at all (or can only be output downconverted), but I cannot understand the rationale for allowing full resolution component output when no HDMI cable is connected, but then restricting that same content from displaying over component when an HDMI cable is present but HDCP negotiation fails.

    There is absolutely nothing being protected by such a scheme and it is purely an inconvenience. With that implementation, whatever they were trying to protect on the component outputs can simply be bypassed by removing the HDMI cable and there is no license agreement that is being violated by doing so.

    Now on the other hand, if the content was copy protected and the scheme was that no component output (or only downconverted component output) was allowed, then I can understand the requirement for full resolution to only be allowed over HDMI with HDCP. In that case you are actually protecting something (or can make the claim something is being protected)
     
  8. Aug 5, 2007 #8 of 10
    JimParks

    JimParks New Member

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    Thanks for the replys. Because the HD TV I plan to use as a monitor is small, I'll set it up beside my main HD TV using the HDMI cables and test all of the different combations. Then I'll get back to you

    Jim
     
  9. Aug 5, 2007 #9 of 10
    moyekj

    moyekj Well-Known Member

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    I think the Tivo implementation could be at fault then. I think it must be related to the fact that all outputs are active at the same time. So the case when the TV is on and switched to a non-HDMI input and HDCP negotiation fails, by license Tivo must send the copy protection notice to HDMI output, but it's also sending the same signal to the other outputs as it normally does which in this case it shouldn't.
     
  10. sfhub

    sfhub Well-Known Member

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    That is certainly a reasonable possibility. Probably the leading candidate.
     

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