Tuning Adapter: YES! ...Now onto the CCI flag

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by skaggs, Jan 23, 2009.

  1. Feb 1, 2009 #41 of 238
    VideoGrabber

    VideoGrabber New Member

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    MichaelK wrote:
    > the professional pirates that this is all supposed to be about already won.

    So the next step in the story is maybe it ISNT really about the professional pirates at all but rather fircing us to pay 2 or 3 times for the same item....
    <

    Bingo! CP isn't about professional pirates, and never has been. They've always had both the means and the incentive to circumvent any CP mechanism.

    But you missed the bulletin... the industry redefined a "pirate" several years ago. Since then it's meant anyone making a copy of a missed episode for their brother, a backup copy in case of damage, or a transfer into another format for place-shifted viewing. Those are the "pirates" that the industry currently seeks to squash. They used to be called "customers".

    Forcing you to pay for the same thing 2 or 3 times would be good. But the ultimate goal will be to make you pay for it every time you watch it. Anything less is just "leaving money on the table" as they say in the industry. They've realized though that this isn't something they can just slam the door on (people have a lifetime of expectations, and wouldn't sit still for it)... it will take some time. The imposition of DRM will be a gradual process, starting with inconvenience and some limitations on the "rights" you have to material you purchase. Eventually though, your "rights" will become less and less, until you have none left.

    Until then, the CCI bits should be set properly. As you can see evidenced already, if a DRM mechanism imposes improper limitations and excessive restrictions on content, nobody in the delivery chain gives a d@mn.

    - Tim
     
  2. Feb 1, 2009 #42 of 238
    m_jonis

    m_jonis Member

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    An exception to the exception (this is what TW Albany is doing):

    re-broadcast locals that are digitally simulcast CAN be set to copy once.

    Our locals (analog) are:
    6, 8, 10, 13, 11, 15 (more or less)

    Their HD equivalents are:
    1806, 1808, 1810, 1813, 1811, and 1815

    TW Albany set ALL of those to copy once.

    After I called and complained, about a week later they set ONLY the HD Locals to CCI Byte copy freely. The others (local analog re-broadcast) are still set to copy once.

    The reasoning (although TW never got back to me--surprise-- on this):

    Those local "analog" signals are actually being digitally simulcast at TW Albany ONLY for cable card users (so if you look, they're not RF, but QAM), and therefore, they CAN (someone had pointed out the FCC language that actually allows for this) and ARE setting the byte to copy once (and that one copy is sitting on your Tivo).

    I filed a complaint to the FCC regarding that and 3 months later got an email with a 2-page PDF that had something to do with cable card compatibility with televisions, so apparently the FCC thinks everything's resolved.
     
  3. Feb 1, 2009 #43 of 238
    MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    it makes no sense to me that cable company's get involved. It's my understanding if the channel owners added the CCI flag on their end that all the headend equipment knows to pass it along. I dont know why the channels do anything via contract- if hbo wants CCI 0x02 then why dont they just apply it at their uplink and be done with it so the whole country is covered? anyone understand this?

    anyway- 01, and 02 being treated the same "by tivo" seems to be a decision by tivo as near as I can tell.
     
  4. Feb 1, 2009 #44 of 238
    MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    :eek:

    oopps sorry- spotty memory strikes again
     
  5. Feb 1, 2009 #45 of 238
    MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    I still dont "KNOW" that is the case- why then does 01 and 02 get the same treatment? If copy once means a copy is on the tivo then copy no more would need to mean tivo CANT make a copy on the box.

    Since tivo treats both those flags the same- the logic SEEMS to follow that the recording on the tivo isn't a copy?

    its an 'un-copy copy' :D
     
  6. Feb 1, 2009 #46 of 238
    berkshires

    berkshires Member

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    TiVo's website doesn't explain the difference between 1&2 very well. I forget the precise definitions myself.

    I think the CCI flag rule is one of those things where there just weren't people with interest to speak up at the time to raise the warning flags. TCF is the obvious place to have debated it, but also there really weren't any consumers with equipment that would be affected by this at the time the rules were defined.

    Like many things, the reaction comes after the fact when it hits you in the face.
     
  7. Feb 1, 2009 #47 of 238
    Raygun

    Raygun New Member

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    I still run a PC from the Evil Empire (Media Center 2005) and use 2 cable boxes connected to 2 tuner cards with S-video. The only shows I can not view on other devices, convert, copy and edit are those from Premium channels, (HBO STARZ etc.) However the only HD content I can get are the locals from my SiliconDust tuner.

    I noticed some of the kid shows I would save off, edit and convert to DIVX I am not allowed on the Tivo, but MCE has no problem.

    I got the Tivo for HD content and then got screwed by SDV and now that I have a TA, life is good. The TA should be called the T&A adapter, because it is almost as good. ( I don't mean Test & Adjust):)

    I started with Tivo, then MCE and now back to Tivo, but it looks like I will have to keep both for the time being.

    Now if I there was only and auto commercial skip function like MCE, I've gotten kind of lazy in my old age to push the 30 sec skip.
    My 4 year old is so spoiled he glares at you if he has to watch a commercial.
     
  8. Feb 1, 2009 #48 of 238
    TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

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    The industry being the RIAA and the MPAA. Not the copyright law. Most lawyers still beleive that backup copies of content still falls within the "FAIR USE" clause of the copy right law. Problem is CP/CIC prevents us from even making backup copies.

    TGC
     
  9. Feb 1, 2009 #49 of 238
    TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

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    The United States of America is a reactonary country. We don't do things till AFTER the fact.

    Even 9/11 and everything we have done since was "After the Fact". Clinton knew 9/11 was going to happen but was to busy with Monica to do anything about it.

    Suffice it to say... Now that the banking industry is failing, the American Auto industry is failing. I am sure the Movie/Music busy will be following soon enough once CP and DRM have come to the point we all pirate just to get our rights.

    I mentioned in another thread & on another forum. Warner Brothers PULLED two shows "The Mentalist" and "The Eleventh Hour" from CBS.com because they no longer wanted viewers to watch full length episodes online. Even though they made you watch the commercials when you did so. As a result many people on that forum have openly suggested where you could obtain PIRATED copies of those shows to watch.

    They gave CBS & Warner Brothers an Ultimatum. Simply provide us with legal copies to watch online, or we would openly support Pirating the show.

    There are only two ways to truly fight this. (IMHO). Write your congressmen/Senators & open Cival disobediance & Pirate!. No difference than the "Boston Tea Party". It's the AMERICAN WAY!

    TGC
     
  10. Feb 1, 2009 #50 of 238
    jcaudle

    jcaudle Member

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    What doesn't make sense in this CCI flag issue with our local provider is that if you record a show on HGTV digital channel you can use MRV with most of them. Take that same show on HGTV HD, and it will have the CCI bit set. That is true with Cox Northern Virginia on all most all the HD channels that you can only get with the tuning adapter. Cable channels such as TNT Hd that have been availabile before SDV still allow transfers. Showtime allows it, HBO doesn't. Most of these flags are set by Cox, not the channels themselves....otherwise non HD versions would be flagged also. Cox wants you to use their POS Scientific Atlanta Dvr.
     
  11. Feb 2, 2009 #51 of 238
    lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    San...
    That's a different matter. FCC regulations are extremely strict concerning signal egress, particularly in aviation bands. The FCC has on several occasions shut down CATV operations cold when violations of fly-over and streetside RF egress specifications were not rectified in very short order. The setting of the CC byte is a horse of a completely different color. No aircraft are in jeopardy of falling out oft he sky, and FCC regs specifically allow the CATV provider to set the CC byte if they choose. One situation involves an extremely illegal circumstance, the other is perfectly legal. One only requires the FCC to do its job as required by law. The other would require the FCC to re-write their regulations. Now if the CC byte were being set on local broadcast stations, the FCC would be down on them like a duck on a June bug.
     
  12. Feb 2, 2009 #52 of 238
    lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    San...
    I think you need to look up the term "reactionary".

    Don't just blame Clinton. Only a moron would believe that having attacked the WTC once and failed, they would not attempt it again. Yet everyone seemed to be surprised when the towers were attacked the second time, as if it were a novel idea. The only thing which surprised me is how long it took them to try again. Using an aircraft to attack the towers is also an obvious method. The only other thing which I didn't anticipate is they chose to use regularly scheduled passenger aircraft. I would have used a private charter or a personal aircraft. Admittedly, a small aircraft loaded with dynamite or ANFO might not have been as effective as a 747, as it turns out.

    More importantly, virtually nothing we have done since the 9/11 attack has any real effect on terrorism. Anyone who can use a torch can easily blow up a public building or derail a subway, and anyone with a stinger missile can easily bring down an airliner.


    You're kidding, right? In the 1950s I think it was, while the house was in session, the Speaker of the House of Representatives formally recognized one of the representatives from Pennsylvania as "The Representative from Standard Oil." The recognized congressman didn't even bother to object. Today a more accurate title would be "Representatives from the MPAA." I doubt if there are ten senators or congressmen who haven't been bought lock, stock, and barrel by the MPAA and the RIAA.
     
  13. Feb 2, 2009 #53 of 238
    TexasGrillChef

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    Not going to get into a debate itself about clinton, 9/11 and the war. However, neither of the 2 jets that hit the WTC or the single jet that hit the Pentagon (Please don't forget that 9/11 included the Pentagon) were 747's. Although you are correct. A gulfstream with C4 would not have had the same impact (pardon the pun) as a commercial jetliner.

    Again not going to get into a debate about this, at least not in the TiVo forums. I do agree. That anyone, anytime can use just about anything found on the open market & create a terrorist style attack. We saw that on 9/11 with a simple box cutter & a jetliner. I do beleive that we have done things differently since 9/11 to hopefully PREVENT another attack by catching those &/or making it more difficult for them to succeed. I do beleive though, another 9/11 will happen before Obama leaves his presidency. JMO

    Actually not so much Reps of the MPAA/RIAA as much as the WTO, of which the MPAA & RIAA have a huge influence in as well. Sometimes congress does act to help us the consumers. Guess when they feel their jobs are at stake! LOL

    TGC
     
  14. Feb 2, 2009 #54 of 238
    TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

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    After talking with a friend of mine today that works for TWC in management. He informed me of one aspect that has a HUGE influence with cable companies.

    One thing they look at on a daily basis is the ratio of those DROPPING cable service to the number of NEW cable subscribers.

    Or in other words... on January 18th, 2009 how many disconnects did they have in relation to new hook ups. Disconnects for failure to pay your bill isn't included in that stat, only those customers who wanted to cancel service.

    There are days when disconnects are greater than new service hook ups.

    Now this (boycott) would be very hard to acomplish. Because the number of cable subscribers in an area needed to gain their attention would be very hard to manage.

    One idea is this... if 25&#37; of the subscriber base called in on one day and requested that their service be disconnected on a the SAME day (2 weeks from the day they called in). A subscriber could call in 24 hours before service is disconnected and cancel the disconnect order. But it would garnish the attention of the local office. Especially if the reason for disconnect was because of their policy on the use of the CCI bit.

    Now initiating a city wide boycott with enough people to give the cable company a scare requires about 25% of their subscriber base.

    For Dallas thats about 1 million people. Thus as I said... almost impossible. Although it's a nice thought.

    TGC
     
  15. Feb 2, 2009 #55 of 238
    lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    San...
    I thought they were 747s. It doesn't matter, really. When it comes to it, don't forget the people on the fourth aircraft. However, what everyone seems to be ignoring is that only a bit over 3800 people died in those events, while in the time since more than 300,000 Americans have died at the hands of drunk drivers. An insignificant fraction of the amount we have wasted supposedly trying to redress the events of that day could have completely avoided almost all those 300,000 deaths.

    It still would have been sufficient to the intent of the terrorists. That, plus the fact is the impact of the jets is not mainly what ultimately caused the collapse of the towers. It was principally the fire caused by the jet fuel, and a C4 loaded with jet fuel might have had the same eventual outcome.

    Not on your life. In many ways, we've made it much easier for them. Most of our efforts haven't even gone into catching anyone. By reports, Bin Laden and most of his cohorts are in Pakistan. How many operatives and troops do we have in Pakistan? They certainly were never in Iraq. Hussein had a bounty on Bin Laden's head, and Bin Laden offered to kill Hussein for the Arabs for a price. The Arabs demurred.

    That's not much of a prediction, assuming he's in the white house four years. It's also not relevant. The 9/11 assault was in some measure the fault of the American public. The 300,000 highway deaths since then are entirely the fault of the American public, and during the next four years there will be another 200,000 deaths for which we are directly responsible. Unless some terrorist manages to build a nuclear weapon - which is not very difficult, actually - it's unlikely all the terrorist attacks around the world will even come close to killing that many people. We could invite the world's terrorists to come and attack us, and they wouldn't be able to do as much damage. That doesn't even talk about the roughly 200,000 Americans who will be murdered by other Americans during those four years, either. 'Not that I wish to trade one person's life for another, but given a choice between another 3000 people dying and 400,000 dying...

    Their jobs are virtually never at stake. Any incumbent running for an additional term is almost guaranteed to be elected.
     
  16. Feb 2, 2009 #56 of 238
    berkshires

    berkshires Member

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    The advantage of that is to get them to move the default right to set the flag to the content owners from the cable co. It is something that makes much more sense all around and easy to grasp on to. It won't create a situation where we can have everything we want, but such a goal isn't practical either.

    The first problem with boycott is that .1&#37; of cable customers are affected by this. :eek: However, let me not make light of the fact that cancelations siting the CCI flag as a reason would get notice from the cable co and help the cause.*


    * I have not resumed cable service in NYC in part because of SDV and CCI. However, my cable co doesn't know about the CCI reason, and the SDV reason no longer exists. How might I let them know?

    IOW, how could numerous OTA only and CableCARD-less TiVoers let their Cable Co know that CCI is a reason they are holding back?
     
  17. Feb 2, 2009 #57 of 238
    JWThiers

    JWThiers Smartypants

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    This is completely OT but is something I know a little about. You are correct that the impact alone of a commercial airliner is NOT enough to bring down a skyscraper it was the intense jet fuel fueled fire that weakened the structure to the point of collapse. HOWEVER, it also turns out that the only planes capable of carrying a large enough amounts fuel load are either military cargo transports and large commercial airliners. Loading a smaller plane (even something like a G-IV wouldn't do it) with explosives also wouldn't work because the amount needed is both too large and too heavy. Aircraft also need to be loaded to keep the center of gravity within narrow margins. If you go too far outside of those margins the plane becomes unflyable.
     
  18. Feb 2, 2009 #58 of 238
    MrPaulAR

    MrPaulAR New Member

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    What if there was another way to do it. I don't think anyone is ever going to get the cable operators to change the way they do things to a more open approach...it'll only get more restrictive. I think TiVo will go the same route but nearly as quickly.

    Is there any way to modify the CCI as it comes in on the wire. Like maybe where the coax connects to the TiVo (or even better where it enters the house)? Surely this device wouldn't be that hard to come up with.
     
  19. Feb 2, 2009 #59 of 238
    MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    if you dont mind violating the law- sure have at it. Good luck selling that in the open.

    That said- I'm not even sure it's possible. THe CCI bits I would guess are encryted inside the streams and only a cablecard would be able to unencrypt those streams. So someone would need to hack the entire system and break into Moto's or Cisco's whole conditional access system.

    But back to your first statement- sure there IS another way to do it. RIGHT NOW TODAY. all tivo needs to do is STREAM the content or MOVE the content instead of COPY the content.

    I'd imagine they are working on it- and before it becomes a complete nightmare they will get it going. (like they did coming up with cablecard devices before analog tv became second rate, like they did with getting the tuning adapter worked out before SDV killed off the market)
     
  20. Feb 2, 2009 #60 of 238
    TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

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    As my friend who works for Time Warner told me. That for the cable company to notice the reason as being significant enough to cause concern would need at least 5% to as much as 10% of their subscriber base to cancel service for the same reason.

    As far as letting your cable company know the reason why you cancelled and why you won't be returning just yet because of the CCI bit. Simply write your local office as well as the main office & let them know why. Same thing applies to anyone who doesn't have cable service but interested in service. Simply letting them know why they haven't ordered service.

    That might help. Then like my friend said. For it to become an "ISSUE" that the cable company would have to consider would require at least 5% to 10% of their customer base.

    TGC
     

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