TiVo's Contract with GraceNote (TMS) ends May 14th

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by SomeRandomIdiot, Mar 29, 2016.

  1. mdavej

    mdavej Well-Known Member

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    That post is 2 years old, so who know what provider Comcast uses now. I know TVGuide used to use Rovi, but there is no evidence that they still do. The example I posted proves that Rovi and Comcast data doesn't match, so how could both be Rovi?

    EDIT: I checked Comcast, TVGuide.com and TV.com. Data on all 3 matches, but is different than Rovi data. That tells me none of those 3 use Rovi.

    Here's another wrinkle. Rovi claims to serve both Charter and AT&T, yet those two don't match each other nor do either match Comcast/TVGuide/TV.

    I don't know what to think now. Is it possible that Rovi generates different data for different customers? That seems like a huge amount of extra work.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2016
  2. JoeKustra

    JoeKustra in the other Alabama TCF Club

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    Same problem. Maybe it will fix itself.
     
  3. Jed1

    Jed1 Well-Known Member

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    For those who are wondering if you are getting Rovi data or TMS data all you have to do is go to account information and select copyrights and then page down about 5 times and you will see that the guide data is provided by Tribune Media Services.

    Generally in the past TV Guide data will start broadcasting around 1:30 AM and will then rebroadcast around 9:00 AM, then around 1:30 PM, and then the last broadcast around 5:30 PM. This way if there was a program change the guide would get it at the end of the day.
    This is the way that Rovi/Gemstars EPG (electronic program guides) TVGOS (TV Guide On Screen) would work. A unique thing that TVGOS guides had was a channel editor. You would get a master list of channels and you can turn them on and off and even change the channel number assignment right in the guide. I hope they maintain this idea. This way you can make changes to your line up right away while you wait until Rovi corrects the line up issue.

    The MSO cable boxes will update their guides at 1:30 AM. These are called IPG (Interactive Program Guides) The cable operator has the master channel list so they can add or delete or change channel assignment numbers at will with out the need of contacting Rovi to change the database.
    This is the main reason why Rovi/Gemstar line ups are outdated as the MSO really don't report lineup changes if they don't want to. In the past they would report changes so it would reflect in the old TV Guide magazine and when that happened this would also update the EPG guide lineups. Once the magazine fell out of favor in the previous decade the lineups would not be updated often enough or not at all.
    Note: TVGOS was a EPG that was embedded in select TVs and recording devices since 1997. The Sony DHG had version 8 of TVGOS embedded in it.
    My two Pioneer Kuros has version 9 embedded in it. Of course when the data stream was shutdown these guides no longer get data anymore so they are not of any use.

    An important thing to remember the Rovi/Gemstar database dates all the way back to 1953 when the first TV Guide magazine was published. The Rovi/Gemstar database is more accurate and comprehensive than Tribunes is.
    I used Rovi/Gemstar data with TVGOS from 1997 to March of 2013 when Rovi discontinued the TVGOS data that relied on data inserters that was in CBS/PBS broadcast streams. There was rarely any errors or corrupt or missing data.
    The only issue I see is the line ups maybe outdated as Rovi has not really updated them since the shutdown of TVGOS. I just had my lineup updated but it took almost three months for them to do it. I suspect we will be able to update the lineups through TiVo so this may only take a week or two.

    Also it is important to remember that Tribune has exited bankruptcy about two years ago and is now in the hands of its creditors. The bankruptcy was pretty long and a lot of things was left go and not updated. It is possible that the new contract for data might have been pretty costly to TiVo or even the possibility that Tribune might put the data service up for sale.
    TMS has lost a lot of clients because of the bankruptcy so it is not unreasonable for TiVo to make the decision to seek a new provider.
     
  4. JWhites

    JWhites New Member

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    Here are some from 2016 http://forums.xfinity.com/t5/Channe...ect-TV-Listings-on-TruTV-Fameless/m-p/2690713
    http://forums.xfinity.com/t5/Channels-and-Programming/ERROR-IN-FILM-SCHEDULING/m-p/2750351

    I took a look at that dinosaur train episode and the first description matches verbatim what's on my TiVo. The second description matches verbatim what Comcast and TV guide says.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2016
  5. Jed1

    Jed1 Well-Known Member

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    Comcast previous contract with Rovi/Gemstar expired in 2014. Back in 2004 Gemstar was short on cash so they made a sweetheart deal with Comcast to offer guide data at a capped 10 cents per sub for 10 years. The only contingency was Comcast would have to pay 20 million in cash. Of course Comcast jumped on it because it was for a fixed number of subs. Of course Comcast increase its subscriber count and did not have to pay Rovi/Gemstar for the additional subs.

    As far as I know Comcast does use Rovi guide data and also the older Rovi/Gemstar IPG's the IGuide and Passport Echo Guides. Of course the sweetheart deal has ended and had to be renegotiated.
    Comcast has developed their own guide for the X1 but it looks a lot like Rovi/Gemstars Total Guide. I do believe there is a lawsuit about this that Rovi has filed as Comcast is violating its patents.
     
  6. JWhites

    JWhites New Member

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  7. TonyD79

    TonyD79 Well-Known Member

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    noooooo!!!!
     
  8. Jed1

    Jed1 Well-Known Member

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    Oh yea I forgot about the search feature. Gemstar came up with the idea of not just searching the guide data but also including data from streaming and online services. They were working on this back in 2010 and called it 6 degrees of search.
    If you realize that it was at this time TiVo was just starting to roll out their HD guide which is still not finished. We will end up with a much better search feature on our TiVo's once the change over happens.
    Since the end of TVGOS in 2013 this is when I bought a TiVo but the TiVo guide and its data has always been lacking to me. The Gemstar guides and features is far better than what TiVo offers. I had HD guides with TVGOS going all the way back to 2004 when I got my first RCA DLP TV. The 2005 Sony DHG had the same guide as my RCA did.
     
  9. JWhites

    JWhites New Member

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    Jed1, personally for me, in regards to your post about the possibility of the data service being put up for sale, I think it'd be a great idea if Rovi bought Gracenote's data service so they can combine their databases and they can fill in where the other is lacking. Then again, I'm sure FTC would never let it go through because of concerns for a monopoly and "lack of competition" or something.
     
  10. JWhites

    JWhites New Member

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    Jed1, with me, the most important thing I want is rich, full, program descriptions and accurate channel lineups. I'd like to see at least 5 lines of program data. I don't want to see one line descriptions that don't really tell me what the episode is about. What it'd also like to see changed is no more of the (Stereo) moniker in the program info when the channel is an HD program that always broadcast 5.1 audio like the premium channels. That's something that really bugs me. What also bugs me is truncated program info with the ellipsis. There is plenty of room for more lines of text in that grey info section.
     
  11. JoeKustra

    JoeKustra in the other Alabama TCF Club

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    Besides the monopoly, that would put "TiVo" in the position to supply all the Gracenote customers. But then again, maybe there will be fewer layoffs that way. :)
     
  12. Jed1

    Jed1 Well-Known Member

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    All the things you describe was available with the TVGOS guides. If you wanted to see more information you would hit the info button again and it would give you a larger info box with all the data. Everything you mention was there like what sound format, HD tags, etc.
    The version 9 on my Kuros was developed in 2007 so that is almost 10 years ago. The version 8 guides had these features to and that was developed in 2004 which is 12 years ago.
    The problem is TiVo and Tribune are has been guides and data. If they want to implement these ideas they will have to come up with something that does not violate Gemstar patents or pay royalties to Gemstar to use their ideas. All the weaknesses that are currently plaguing TiVo's is their own fault because it is their design. With Rovi on board it will be Gemstar programmers doing the guide layout and providing the data. TiVo will no longer have to worry about patent violations either.
    Also Gemstar has had logos going back into 1997 when they first introduced the first EPG guide embedded in consumer TVs.
     
  13. Jed1

    Jed1 Well-Known Member

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    Here are two pictures from my Rovi/Gemstar guide embedded on my Kuro. This is a version 9 guide that was developed in 2007. Unfortunately I took these pictures after the data was shutdown in March of 2013. The one is of the grid with my channel lineup and the other is of the channel editor.
    The two boxes under the live TV window was for ads that was insterted in the data stream. The ads were mostly for shows that was broadcasting on TV and some others for things like Bose audio products.
     

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  14. mdavej

    mdavej Well-Known Member

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    This is blowing my mind. Rovi says they supply Charter, whose online guide I got the data from. But when I compare it to Zap2It, it matches exactly, which also matches Tivo. So Charter's online guide is actually getting Gracenote data like Tivo, not Rovi.

    Long story short, you are apparently correct. My apologies.

    So we can indeed use TVGuide.com to see Rovi data. But I do wish a WMC user would chime in and verify that TVGuide.com matches the WMC guide.
     
  15. DevdogAZ

    DevdogAZ Give 'em Hell, Devils

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    Why would Rovi/TiVo want to do that? As far as they are concerned, they already have a better product than Gracenote, so they should be able to beat Gracenote just by competing.
     
  16. Jed1

    Jed1 Well-Known Member

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    The confusion here is it does not say Rovi supplies Charter with Metadata but with the guides themselves.
    http://www.rovicorp.com/customers/charter.html
    Now Rovi supplies EchoStar with metadata.
    http://www.rovicorp.com/customers/echostar.html

    Rovi does a lot more than just metadata. They supply guide software, IP software for DVRs, Video platforms for websites, etc. Just because a company is listed does not mean metadata. Now my cable system gets guide software, IP software for DVRs, and metadata. But Service Electric is not listed there as they are a small operator.
     
  17. tivoyahoo

    tivoyahoo New Member

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    Not sure if this is the right spot to post, but goes to the issue of different channel guide data. NBC ota is broadcast from 2 towers in the San Francisco Bay Area, however when I look at: http://www.tvguide.com/listings/ one of the channels (11.3) is missing - see first attachment. one can enter zip code 94111 to see the listings.

    NBC 11 serves San Francisco / Oakland / San Jose. 11.1 & 11.2 (transmitter/frequency 12) are on Mt. San Bruno (near SF) and 11.3 (transmitter / frequency 49) is on Mt. Allison (near san jose). 11.3 KNTV-HD duplicates 11.1 KNTVDT as far as the programming. so it's the same network, and the main nbc programming feed, it's just there is a second tower more to the south broadcasting the same station's primary feed with both 11.1 and 11.3 in HD.

    from:
    http://www.choisser.com/channels.html
    11.1 12.3 KNTV NBC San Jose Mt. San Bruno - nbcbayarea.com
    11.2 12.4 Cozi-TV Mt. San Bruno
    11.3 49.5 KNTV-NBC Mt. Allison

    in that same list in the prior link, if you look at 2.1 the fox affiliate, you can likewise see that it's on 2 towers using 2 different frequencies, but 2.1 is the primary channel on both for the primary feed. Same for 7.1 (abc). so nbc is a little different, replicating the primary feed on subchannel 3. So if you're receiving nbc from 11.3, how does one get the guide data? is there a way to submit omissions to Rovi? and get that in the pipeline now as in sooner vs. later for tivo? and in the case of 2.1 being duplicated, how do you know that both will be in the guide data? tivo duplicates them in the channel list with different call letters and you can check the box to select in channel list.

    However on zap2it guide, 11.3 is there (see 2nd attachment) and the program info is correct:
    http://tvschedule.zap2it.com/tvlistings/

    although it shows call letters of KSTS not KNTV but both are NBC Universal properties - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KSTS
    and it doesn't really matter since the programming info is correct and that's what shown by tivo currently. But with a Rovi changeover it appears the program guide for the channel gets lost entirely. And tuning to 11.1 which is a vhf has spotty reception. So is the workaround just to set manual recordings for the channel?

    I suppose someone on WMC must have already run into this situation. And I'm wondering if replicated channels 2 (fox) and 7 (abc) suffer a similar issue. And am wondering how to nip this in the bud.

    for comparison, I looked at Titan TV and it has the channel, network, and programming all correct - attachment 3.
     

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  18. JWhites

    JWhites New Member

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    I would think if they're supplying the guide to Charter, the metadata for the guide would be included. It's not like they're gonna supply the guide to Charter with someone else's metadata...or would they?
     
  19. JWhites

    JWhites New Member

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    Assurances? Piece of mind? Just because you think you have the best product doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement somewhere. Proactiveness looks good to investors and customers that you're always striving to be better then yourself. Complacency can be a fatal mistake in a business.
     
  20. mdavej

    mdavej Well-Known Member

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    WMC users have been sending their issue reports to ipgcustomersupport@rovicorp.com . I wouldn't mention Tivo, just WMC.
     

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