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Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by sac84371, May 24, 2011.
Youre right but the Tivo sheep around here are just going to rake you over the coals.
if the Moxi or anything resembling a decent DVR could sell well then I would not even be here to care. As it is I find no decent alternative out there and indeed the OP is simply giving up on recording shows and moving on to Apple TV which seems to suit his needs but I find TiVo the best 3rd party DVR and the only company to even still be afloat. Hell, even Dish could not copy the TiVo DVR and sell them even with the added DISH features of sling box and so forth.
This forum keeps making the group think mistake that if TiVo just spent a boatload of resources to fix all the stuff we ***** about that some magical marketing spell will start moving them off the shelves. It simply is not so...
Grakthis says he spent $900 on his HTPC, and he says he built it,but then he complains about how loud it is? wtf? if you built it, it is your fault its loud, it doesn't need to be and there are tons of HTPCs that are not. there are places you could pay $1000 and get a dead-silent HTPC already pre-configed for you,working perfectly. tuners just dropping isn't common with a well setup WMC system,nor is Audio cut-outs(happens on my Tivo regularly). people run 8-tuner systems and have no problems, so I dont know what you did wrong.
all your aruguments seem to be that ' well ive never had problems with Tivo and I have had problems with HTPCs" but that holds no weight,at all,because tons and tons of people do have constant problems with their Tivos.
if Microsoft released a box with WMC on it, It'd be a far better experience than a Tivo,easily.
Not to mention they put out press releases announcing the service only to have tivo users get excited,goto their box and be unable to access it. amazing PR.
"This forum keeps making the group think mistake that if TiVo just spent a boatload of resources to fix all the stuff we ***** about that some magical marketing spell will start moving them off the shelves. It simply is not so..."
ummm...I dont know about anyone else here, but I dont care if Tivo succeeds at this point,so how much they sell is meaningless to me, if thats their only focus and current customers are meaningless to them,then all the hate is well deserved. I just want them to fix the problems with the permiere so its a better experience for the users,I couldn't possibly care less if they do well as a company,they deserve to fail.
Wow, really? Hours or days? Are you sure you aren't talking about Windows 98 that's directly connected to the internet? Windows 7 is ridiculously stable and secure, I can't really say anything more except your bias again Microsoft is so over-the-top, it forces you to make silly statements like that.
They aren't discarding anything, they are supplementing their PCs and Laptops with iPads and other tablets because they do very different things. Do you know a single person who can get by with just an iPad? Absolutely not, it's ridiculous to even suggest that. They have their specific use-cases, and that's what we're seeing, not the abandonment of Desktop/Laptop PCs, but consumers purchasing multiple devices for different uses.
The truth is, Windows 7 offers a more hands off approach to security and general updates than even the iPad and iPhone do. With automatic updates enabled, you never have to install any kind of OS update, it'll just do it for you in the wee hours of the night. The iPad and iPhone REQUIRE you to plug in your device to a computer to update the software. Other tablet devices do provide wireless updating, but the user is still prompted to install them. I'd say Windows has a one up on phone & tablets.
Wrong again: http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/27/windows-7-media-center-coming-to-embedded-devices/
Other than innovating on the software front again, I think if VoD support is rolled out to more Cable providers and service pricing is streamlined (CHEAPER), they could really change things. Why would anyone pay $20/month + $1-$8 for a cable card + an outlet fee PER ROOM when the Cable Company (Or Telco) can provide a albeit worse experience that's much cheaper.
Service should either be tied to a Tuner or be streamlined to $7.99/month per device with no limit. Extenders should cost NOTHING except the price of the hardware, which shouldn't exceed $100. I wouldn't mind paying $20/month for a quad tuner, cable card & VoD equipped TiVo box ($5 per tuner), if it meant I could have an extender in every room streaming Live TV and recorded shows from the master TiVo.
At this point, it's insulting that TiVo is having us subsidize their half-baked development. MRV is crap, and there is no excuse for not having true streaming, unified Now Playing list, cooperative tuning and a complete UI. They've had literally 5 years to get this done, what has the development team really done since the introduction of the Series 3?
The sad thing is, if TiVo just scrapped the individual TiVo for each bedroom paradigm and went with a master TiVo with more tuner and cheap extender hardware, (à la Mediaroom) they'd be in a much better position software-wise because a lot of things like cooperative scheduling, unified now playing list and streaming become redundant since everything is communicating with a single master TiVo.
Get it together TiVo!
Yep. I run 8 tuners in my setup and rarely have any issues other than the occasional cablecard lockup. This is usually indicated by a "Tuner not available" message. They claim cablecards can handle up to six HD streams simultaneously but I think it's more like 3 if you want a completely stable system. The new SD HDHR Prime uses a single CC for three tuners so chances are it will be extremely stable for WMC use.
I only ran into the CC lockup issue when using multiple WMC extenders. I've dumped the extenders so I no longer have the problem. I'd be curious to see if the tuner sharing app from Ceton helps to eliminate this problem since you'd no longer be sharing individual tuners between an extender and the main PC but rather dedicating a given tuner to one PC.
Again, warts and alll, Tivo is the best solution out there for what it does. COuld it be better? Yes.
Name one DVR/STB that can do all the things Tivo can and pass the "I got one for my Grandma" test. There are none.
Moxi- has three tuners, extenders with real streaming and a working HDUI. Internet apps/streaming only via Play-On software and then restricted to whatever the app can do on a PC (SD only in many cases, etc). No unified scheduling if you have additional Moxis. No moving files to PC/from PC. Also, effectively a "dead" solution with indications all devlopment has stopped.
Cable DVRs- Most have two tuners only, many have added streaming to cable boxes and other cable DVRs. No Internet apps for most, but you do have the cableco's VOD. No unified scheduling/deleting and some of the worst UIs I have ever seen (some are getting better). No "to the PC" or "from the PC" functionality.
Media Center PC- Has it all if you are willing to go there, but Granny would drop dead trying to use it and keep it up. I am not Granny, but I am also not willing to tell my family I missed their favorite show because Windows downloaded an update and the sytem hung on bootup. Likely breakeven over Tivo measured in a couple of years.
Tivo- No true streaming (but has MRV- unless CCI is an issue for you-and it is fast as heck on Premieres), No extenders or even unified scheduling with other Tivos. The HDUI is slick but unfinished and still has the need for speed.
Feel free to correct me where I am wrong or missing info, but IMO Tivo meets more of my needs than any other solution. They have to do something on this streaming issue due to the CCI flag but the UI is secondary to me. I need bulletproof recording and Tivo to Go and Tivo to Come Back functionality (pyTivo, kmttg, Tivo Desktop, streambaby) more than anything else.
So , let me see if I've got this right. You're basically saying that Tivos are for the technically challenged whereas Media Center PCs are reserved for the smarter folks. Got it. We won't buy Granny an HTPC. But wait, she's on a fixed income and can't afford the escalating monthly Tivo fees, let alone a lifetime subscription! Now what?
FYI - neither my 87-year old mother or my 86-year old mother-in-law have any interest in owning or using a DVR. I'm still getting my mother used to the idea of sending and receiving e-mails. Most "Grannies" haven't moved into the 21st century, technologically speaking. My Mom had FIOS installed and never realized she was paying for HDTV and only had an SDTV cable box. She wasn't even aware of the difference until I showed her. Heck, my wife still tunes to standard def channels on her HDTV using the Tivo. Nobody in my household uses the Tivo to record anything. Not everyone has an interest in current technology, let alone a Tivo or an HTPC.
FYFI - my HTPC does everything listed above and much more. I've got my HTPC configured to download updates automatically but only install them when I tell it to, and then only the ones I approve. I've never had my HTPC hang at bootup, but I've had lots of Tivos do it. What's Granny gonna do when that happens and you're not around to fix it?
I would imagine that Granny would do like most of her generation, and go without what she can't afford. Probably a lesson to be learned there.
I've been reading this thread for days without commenting.
Our set up has an htpc (dual core atom board, 4gb ram , ssd running win7 media center), tivo and roku. Having used both an htpc and roku, they are excellent devices for what they are. Likewise, the tivo is an excellent device for what it is. Of the 3, Tivo is the worse for streaming internet video. Of the 3, Tivo is the best for ease of use to record broadcast TV (ours is OTA).
mr.unnatural, you are fighting a losing battle. The devices are what they are and regardless of your personal experience (and mine too), you are not going to convince anyone here of the goodness of the htpc. As long as you and your family enjoy the experience, that is all that counts.
That might be true but what not fixing all this stuff is accomplishing is making people like me take pause at whatever comes after the Premiere.
My situation is a little unique. I bought a HD and wanted to use it with analog only. It was great until the tuner bug reared its head and Tivo jerked me around about that for 6 months. Finally they offered to sell me a Premiere at a slightly reduced rate. I bit on it since it was newer and supposedly had more features.
The Premiere is at best a small upgrade from the HD. It streams better than the HD and has a half finished HD UI which looks okay but its not a game changer and the lack of moving it forward in a positive manner is going to come back to haunt them.
They should have finished the UI, polished up the turd that is the Netflix app and done some other stuff to get their house in order instead of pushing out half baked implementations to make themselves a dollar.
Tivo is like that website covered in ads you hate to go to but just deal with it anyway. Theyre cramming as much crap into it as they can to make themselves a dollar while they neglect the user experience.
The Tivo loyalists will never see anything wrong with that and like the sheep they are will run out and buy the next Tivo "game changer" and sit here and defend anything and everything Tivo does.
Im not saying Ill never buy another Tivo but I wont buy another one anywhere close to launch and judging how they have handled the Premiere, Im not sure Id even buy the first year. With the pricing being what it is, I might pass all together, I dont know. Point is, Tivo has done nothing to keep my business. I dont feel like my money means anything to them and Ive been a Tivo user since the Series 1 came out.
I can count on two fingers the number of times I've had to pull the plug on my S3....
Now that's just one of the most ridiculous comments I've ever read....
I never said that. I would go the Media Center PC in a heartbeat (we already have a HTPC that serves up movies and videos to the Tivos) and a bunch of computers all over the house, but it is not ready for the masses- not even my family. Tivo, for the most part is. (OK, that's debateable with Cable Cards ).
I am convinced there is a MCPC in my future but not yet.
Keep practicing, and lay off the "bier", and you'll learn to count on all ten fingers!
I agree with the OP. Which is why I went with DirecTV after so many years with cable/TiVo. I've had no problems, I've gotten used to the interface, and couldn't be happier. Of course when I extolled the virtues of DTV in this forum I was summarily raked over the coals by some.
I like the fire in the belly of those TiVo die-hards. I WAS one of 'em. TiVo has to step or or get out of the way.
the S3 is about a million times more stable than the permire. Ive had to unplug my box 10+ times just from Netflix problems before they fixed the app from crashing if you went too far into your queue.
I don't see it as a battle but rather an open dialog where people are simply expressing their opinions. I don't expect to convert anyone from using a Tivo to an HTPC, especially in these forums where the rank and file think that nothing could possibly be better than a Tivo. It's their loss, not mine.
I've used lots of DVRs over the years and I picked Tivo because of the fact that it can be hacked to do a multitude of things over and above what a stock Tivo can do. The thing is, all of the things the hacking community developed and enjoyed for many years ahead of the mainstream users is now incorporated into virtually every current model of Tivo. There's nothing more to hack, or at least nothing that piques my interest.
I've gone about as far as I can with anything Tivo-related. The next logical step for me was to look at Media Center PCs. At first I used them for recording OTA programming to supplement my Tivos that I used for DirecTV and eventually FIOS. Now that cablecard tuners are available I find that Windows Media Center not only supplants the Tivos I once loved but far surpasses them in almost every way. Tivos are far too limited by comparison. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble but them's the facts.
FWIW, I've used many DVRs in the past that I found to be better and more user-friendly than Tivos. I stuck with Tivos because the other DVRs are no longer manufactured and Tivos could be hacked whereas the other brands had limited hackability, if any. ReplayTV was far ahead of Tivo technologically but fell victim to poor marketing and legal issues. Had they been able to weather the storm and develop a HD version I'd be surprised if there would be as many loyal Tivo owners as there are today.
UltimateTV was one of the best DirecTV DVRs I've ever used, but Microsoft charged double the fees that Tivo did and it was a Microsoft product so I opted out of that short-term relationship. Microsoft quickly abandoned UltimateTV so now it's a moot point. That left Tivo as the No. 1 contender for top DVR. They were still standing after the dust settled and basically had no other viable competition. I don't even consider cableco DVRs as competition for Tivo simply because they're aimed at different markets. These are the boxes that "Granny" would more likely use simply because the cableco will fix or replace them if they break. She probably also never heard of a Tivo and got the DVR only because some sharp salesman talked her into it.
Tivos are still great DVRs. I've never said otherwise. I just don't think they offer as much flexibility and features that a Media Center PC can offer. With a Tivo you need a separate box for recording TV, another one for playing back DVDs and Blu-Rays, another box for playing back media files, and so on and so forth. With an HTPC I only need a single box to do all that and more. I also like the fact that I pay zero monthly fees after my initial investment. No extra charge for lifetime service. HTPCs are the perfect all-in-one solution.
In case anyone's interested, here are a couple of buyer's and builder's guides for HTPCs:
Note that the The Missing Remote (missing remote.com) has a series of Beginner's Guides for all things HTPC related and are still developing even more guides. There are lots of good articles there that are worth a read. Even if you have no intention of building an HTPC but just want to learn more about them, it's a great resource of information.
Most of what you said was re-iterating the things I already responded to, but there are a few nuggets here.
Ok, so, you're walking back your previous claim that the updates are notorious for causing more problems than they fix and you are instead saying "there are countless incidents where many of them do [cause problems]." First of all, it's not countless. And second of all, yes, patches sometimes cause problems. Even while fixing 20 problems, they might cause 1 new problem. This is the reality of technology and this is a far cry from your original claim.
Engage in less hyperbole and say what you mean the first time so you don't have to walk it back later and communication is smoother and easier for everyone.
That's great for you and I. What about for my mom? Is she going to check the AVSForums to build an HTPC? I guess you are going to say it's not "for her." Well then, TiVo is. So your HTPC is worse than a TiVo. Thanks for agreeing with me again.
Way to not be up-to-date on the technology I am talking about. Use google to find out what I am talking about before you respond with something totally unrelated and try to give a history lesson to someone who already knows it.
And then you flip around and contradict yourself by suggesting that the WMC PCs are superior to TiVo?
Again, you're walking back what you said. Forgive me for assuming you were going to be consistent and that what you said on page X would be the same as what you said on page X - 5. If you don't change your story, I won't have to read your entire posting history.
The lesson is that consumers like appliances. We like PCs too... but most things, we just want appliances. Even the tech class wants appliances. We want a box that plugs into our TVs and works and we're willing to pay for that. Even the cable card pairing in TiVos is unacceptably complicated for most users. We live in an era where video games all come with a first stage tutorial because no one wants to read the instructions.
I love to fiddle with my PC... I do not love to fiddle with my television. I also do not want to fiddle with my toaster, my fridge, my dishwasher, etc.
This is the lesson to take from apple. People want something that works, right out of the box, without hours of customization and tweaking.