Tivo v. Echostar decision

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by NotVeryWitty, Apr 20, 2011.

  1. NotVeryWitty

    NotVeryWitty Too Big to Fail

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    http://pr.tivo.com/easyir/customrel...ersion=live&prid=746880&releasejsp=custom_150

    "We are pleased that the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit sitting en banc affirmed the district court's finding of contempt and award of sanctions against EchoStar for failing to comply with the district court's injunction. This marks the second time that the district court's contempt ruling has been upheld by the Court of Appeals. We look forward to the permanent injunction against EchoStar and Dish Network finally being enforced with respect to the DVRs they must now disable. This ruling also paves the way for TiVo to receive substantial damages and contempt sanctions regarding the DVRs that EchoStar and Dish Network failed to disable. With respect to the remand of the infringement provision of the District's Courts order, we intend to pursue the most rapid path to resolution. We will continue our efforts to protect our intellectual property from further infringement by EchoStar and Dish Network."

    Still looking for the actual ruling...
     
  2. GBL

    GBL covert opiniative

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  3. wedgecon

    wedgecon Just Plain Awesome TCF Club

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    I am sure EchoStar will be able to keep on filing appeals and dragging this out for at least another decade.
     
  4. JimboG

    JimboG New Member

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    This was the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, sitting en banc. Charlie Ergen's next recourse is to appeal to the Supreme Court, which undoubtedly will decline to grant cert.

    At that point, Charlie's only option is to appeal to God Himself. The Almighty, if he chooses to intervene, likely will smite down Charlie for being such a schmuck. There is a chance that He might mete out punitive damages greater and longer lasting than the Eastern District of Texas can. Sorry Charlie.:p
     
  5. That Don Guy

    That Don Guy Now with more GB

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    I have a feeling they will hear the case, if only to decide whether or not the $90 million award should have been set aside because the appeals court found partially in favor of Echostar.
     
  6. tomhorsley

    tomhorsley Well-Known Member

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    Either that or buy tivo, which might cost less than paying damages...
     
  7. SpiritualPoet

    SpiritualPoet Member

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    I would absolutely hate Echostar/Dish Network to aquire TiVo.
     
  8. Series3Sub

    Series3Sub Well-Known Member

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    Charlie could enter into a licensing agreement with TiVo, but the next day start the swap-out of the relatively few remaining old MPEG2 DVR's. Most of these have already been changed out. Even if the swap-out that takes a year, Dish still comes out ahead with having pay licensing for only a short period; then buh-bye to monthly checks for TiVo.

    The real question is that with this legal battle almost financially ruining TiVo (they have made consistent remarks in quarterlies as to how financially onerous this suit has been, and now they just recently borrowed money to continue the suit against Echostar), can TiVo withstand the even greater legal costs of Dish's now approved to go ahead suit against TiVo alleging infringement on Dish's patents and the counter-suits of Verizon, AT&T, Microsoft, Motorola (I hope I got them all correct) all piled on our little TiVo creature. The answer is no. TiVo's strategy was to intimidate the others into a licensing agreement, but it is clear that with this ruling, much was vacated, and that gives hope to TiVo's new defendant's dragging this out until TiVo really does die rather than feeling TiVo has any legal ammo.
     
  9. Worf

    Worf Well-Known Member

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    While it's true they can license for the remaining period of time, they're still liable for the licensing fees due when they were infringing (which can be treble damages). Otherwise this would be a really big loophole - release a product that infringes, litigate, litigate, litigate, then when product's just about obsolete, license and pay small fee. I believe the treble damages aren't even counted towards the punitive damage award either.

    I think the whole point for prolonging the litigation is to ruin TiVo, then buy up the pieces for cheap. The missed out when ReplayTV was for sale, now they want to go after TiVo. I mean, why go through all this trouble when they could've just licensed it all, like everyone else?
     
  10. jfh3

    jfh3 Active Member

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    No chance that TiVo will only license some of the receivers. I'd be shocked if any deal did't include all DVR's, not just the ones covered by the contempt provision.
     
  11. HiDefGator

    HiDefGator New Member

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    I don't believe they want the pieces either. Even for cheap. The whole point was to not have to sign a license deal with Tivo for $3 a month on every DVR deployed. As long as the court case keeps charging them $1.25 it is a better deal than Tivo is offering them.
     
  12. samo

    samo New Member

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    50X DishPVR series was very nice single tuner SD DVR in 2001. It is so outdated now that I would be surprised if there are even 100K of these in service. Dish can easily replace them with new generation DVRs for much less than licensing fees would be. They will try Supreme court and if doesn't work, they will shot down all the named models and replace them for the customers at no charge. TiVo will get the damages and pass them along as bonuses to the board of directors and whatever will be left will be used to defend themselves in pending lawsuits from Dish and Microsoft.
     
  13. Series3Sub

    Series3Sub Well-Known Member

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    The infringing DVR's are only early generation MPEG2 only DVR's. The only models still in service are 501, 508, 510 512, 522, 625 (721 swapped out years ago). None of the MPEG4 ViP models are part of this suit (an whole new trial is needed, although the ViP's use hardware for supposed "infringing" features instead of software), so TiVo CAN'T negotiate or get payments for those, only the really old models that use what TiVo claims and a court found to be its (TiVo's) software on specific models only.

    While there are still more than a few of the "infringing" DVR's out there, a lot have already been upgraded. In fact, Dish has a constellation for half the U.S. that uses ONLY the ViP series. The old 50X and 510 are swapped for other DVR's when RMA'd, In other words, Charlie has been swapping out the "infringing" DVR's for years and now doesn't have nearly the number of those he did when this suit started. That means any licensing deal will net TiVo some money on the short term, but nothing in the long term, perhaps nothing beyond a year or NOT AT ALL if Dish gets a court to stay the execution of the order shut off the infringing DVR's, and that is likely. If not, Dish will license and then swap-out ASAP.

    In the last quarterly of Echostar, they stated that they had absorb a fair cost due to an unusually large number of new STB's (ViP DVR's and other boxes) in inventory, but they expected to use quite a bit of that inventory, for what, they never explained. What a coincidence!

    As far as punitive and whatever damages, it won't even come close to ruining Echostar, who is indemnifying Dish on this matter. But the whole TiVo vs. Dish and Echostar is pretty much over and done, it is the future of another 7 year legal battle with deep pocketed Verizon, AT&T, Microsoft, et al. that looks bleak. Rather than rushing to TiVo's bargaining table in mortal fear (this was TiVo CEO Tom Rogers strategy), after witnessing Dish lose (and Dish has pretty much lost), the big guys are gunning to do a Charlie Ergan. Oh, and those defendants can always do a software work around along the way, this time with the court's approval IF they are found guilty 3 years from now.

    TiVo just doesn't have the cash to hang in there. My word, if a company has to BORROW money in order to continue with a legal fight (pay the lawyers and all other costs), it doesn't take an economist to conclude that things are not good at that company. TiVo is a Frank McCourt with Dodgers right now, but the TiVo execs seem to have made some maneuvers over the last several months that could allow from some golden parachutes when they can no longer borrow money.
     
  14. ZeoTiVo

    ZeoTiVo I can't explain

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    they sold stock to get money for the other suits involving AT&T and whoever else.

    They did not borrow money for the echostar suit and what they actually said in the quarterly statement is how they have a nice return on the money spent on litigating Ecostar in the form of the damages, and thus feel the selling of stock to raise money for the further suits will be a good investment of the resources.

    TiVo has no real debt so they are not leveraging the company as you state.

    For DISH this was more annoyance then anything s they otherwise would have licensed and paid out that way instead. With all the well engineered DVRs DISH has already produced Dish has no need of buying TiVo unless DISH feels like suing AT&T and all.
     
  15. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    tivo CAN negotiate all they want for the "non-infringing" dvr's. And so can Dish.

    Tivo: "pay us 3 bucks a month for the infringers or 1 buck a month each dvr you have"

    Dish: "1/10th a cent a month for each dvr or the ~1.50 a month for the infringing DVR's like the court has set"

    Tivo" no no no- a dollar each and everyone dvr"

    Dish "here's a check for the ~1.50 a month the court set as a reasonable amount on the infringers. notice it ends next month since they will all be out of service by then. ba-bye"

    tivo" ok ok- 1/10th a cent per DVR and we all agree that's the end of the lawsuits"

    Dish "and did we mention that's only good until the end of 2012?"

    Tivo- "ok that lets up put out a press release that you are paying for every dvr at the present."

    it's a big complicated mess- tivo will surely threaten to sue on the new models. Dish will remind tivo that they have a suit pending also. They'll likely want to come to some cross licensing deal. WHo knows what the end result is....
     
  16. replaytv

    replaytv gun talk ignore list

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    It seems to me that I have read that Tivo continually is losing subscribers without replacing them, and is losing money every year. So now I am worried that my much beloved Tivo will go belly up. So if no one else will 'save' tivo then maybe echostar would be better than no one?
    Maybe I should hang on to my Series 1 Tivos just in case?
     
  17. ZeoTiVo

    ZeoTiVo I can't explain

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    Dish would close the retail box market altogether as not worth DISHes time.
     
  18. shwru980r

    shwru980r Well-Known Member

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    What use would Dish have for Tivo given that Dish is so close to deactivating all the infringing DVRs? The last two Tivo models don't even work with satellite TV.
     
  19. vurbano

    vurbano Member

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    This ruling simply gives Charlie time to move all of his infringing mpeg2 customers to the newer DVR models that this case doesnt address. IMO, it is a cop out and the court simply does not want a bunch of angry Dish owners to deal with.
     
  20. DeWitt

    DeWitt Member

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    Saratoga...

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