Tivo to separate into two companies

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by alarson83, May 9, 2019.

  1. NashGuy

    NashGuy Well-Known Member

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    I do think that it will be the norm for MVPDs and vMVPDs (whichever ones survive) to offer competitively priced* skinny channel bundles of sports + news (+ locals too, probably) by that 2022-24 time frame. And I think a lot of consumers will opt for those and complement them with various SVODs. In the meantime, consumers who don't care that much about sports will continue to abandon the cable channel bundle and just use SVODs, often complemented by free OTA TV and various free streaming sources. (And while sports will mostly remain wedded to linear channels, we'll see a bit more sports content become available through a la carte streaming sources such as ESPN+, etc. I'll be interested to see if Sinclair offers their new RSNs as standalone streaming options.)

    That said, I don't think cable channels outside of locals+sports+news are just going to fall away soon. Even in 2024 (which is only 5 years from now), there will still be lots of folks (particularly older viewers) who prefer to get as much of their content as possible through linear channels. Yes, I expect we'll see an increasing number of small, niche-y cable channels disappear. But I don't think TBS, HGTV, Discovery, USA or FX will cease to exist in the next few years. But perhaps we'll increasingly see most linear cable channels as merely extensions of brands that primarily reside in the SVODs offered by those channels' owners.

    (*Right now, Comcast lets their broadband customers add just locals for an extra $20 per month including all fees. And then, if you want, you can add a Sports & News channel pack on top of that for an extra $30, although I'm pretty sure there's still the $8.25 RSN fee on top of that. So that's $58.25 for just locals, sports and news in HD. Want cloud DVR? That's an extra $10 on top, so a total of $68.25 on top of your broadband bill. That's clearly not competitive with the entire package of channels on YouTube TV, now priced at $50.)

    Hulu reported makes over $9/mo per subscriber through selling targeted ads to those on the basic $6/mo plan. Hopefully this doesn't mean that my $12/mo ad-free plan goes up to $15, although that would make sense if those figures are true.

    Hulu’s price cut and Spotify tie-in suddenly make more sense
     
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  2. NashGuy

    NashGuy Well-Known Member

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    I'm not really interested in the paradigm of "recording" TV any more. It's just seems anachronistic. I laugh to myself when I visit my parents and watch Mom scrolling through the channel guide to see what's airing over the next several days to see if there's anything she wants to set up to record. And then there's always the management of storage space -- they have to delete watched shows to free up space, unless it's something they plan to watch again later. Sometimes they run into tuner conflicts because you can only record/watch so many live channels at once. And then there's the bother of skipping or FF'ing through the ads in recorded shows. Oops, went too far! Let me rewind back so we don't miss any of the show.

    Once you've gotten used to watching everything you actually care about via on-demand streaming sources, the old way of TV just feels silly, like a lot of needless work.
     
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  3. Charles R

    Charles R Well-Known Member

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    Having skipped commercials since 2000 there is virtually no content I'll watch if commercials are included. Sure I might zone out in front of the TV for an hour or so on a rare occasion and a few commercials might air however I'll switch what I'm going to watch before sitting through commercials. Nothing is that exciting that I'm willing to give up a third of my (viewing) life watching commercials.

    Let's look as some rough numbers... 20 (years) x 365 (days) x 4 (viewing hours) = 29,200 hours. Average hour show is around 40 minutes nowadays so commercials are roughly 1/3 of the 29,200 hours. A whopping 9,636 hours you'll never get back! Sure one's numbers might be less or more but regardless it's far too many hours wasted in one's life.
     
  4. Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    On-demand streaming is appealing. But then, it has its $ cost, as vs. free OTA. And as long as the streaming service has what one wants and doesn't suddenly stop offering it (a fear that I always would have--I prefer not relying on a company). And as long as one's Internet service supports the amount of streaming that one would do.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  5. Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    And that's why one has a TiVo box and skips over commercials. (Or otherwise uses the odd commercial break for the time-held tradition of going to the bathroom or getting some food from the kitchen, or multitasking online.)
     
  6. Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    I don't do much streaming and get most content OTA, but from the above, the Amazon integrated system (from what I'm gathering, integrating both OTA and streaming services onto the same schedule grid--please correct me if I'm wrong there) looks very nice. I'm a bit confused, though: does Apple do that as well, and what, exactly, is it doing with the on-demand content? (Certainly it can't be listing the specific on-demand content that is available, along with the time-based content.)

    For those using streaming services as vs. (or in addition to) cable, I can see the attraction of the Amazon system (as I understand it) over the TiVo guide, which seems cemented into the OTA and cable system paradigms. Would TiVo, including in its intended future, ever add to that as Amazon has done?
     
  7. smark

    smark Well-Known Member

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    Apple does not do that with OTA content as they don't have an OTA tuner on the market. Amazon's grid up there includes using their Recast tuner/DVR.
     
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  8. mschnebly

    mschnebly Well-Known Member

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    I rely on that with my APTV too. It works great.
     
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  9. wizwor

    wizwor Guest

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    I've mastered the collecting of programming. For shows I will watch more than once, I buy the box set and move to my Plex server. For shows I like to watch, I direct a TiVo to collect. I plan to migrate from this to a 9T Recast solution.
    Maybe, if I could find everything I want to watch on one streaming service. My library includes stuff on Prime and Netflix plus stuff I bought and stuff I collect OTA. To each his own, right?

    I think I could be totally satisfied with Recast (OTA) + Vue Core + HBO (Prime Channel) + Plex. That would cost me $125 per month and surpass any Cable package I have ever had.
     
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  10. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    I do not want to watch commercials. Even if they paid me $100 a month I wouldnt do it. The reason I couldn't go with a regular iptv service to entirely replace cable, was because you couldn't avoid all the commercials.

    So I went with ad free hulu, philo, CBS aa, plus news from FiOS cable. And then some shows I buy outright. I get better video quality, avoid commercials, and still pay less than when I got everything from cable.

    I've been time shifting my TV watching since 1984. So I am very adverse to watching commercials.

    Sent from my Galaxy S10
     
  11. exdishguy

    exdishguy Active Member

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    OK, I haven't tried Hulu in years and when I did I hated the ads, and mostly, the picture quality sucked a$$. aaronwt, are you seeing pretty good PQ with Hulu add free? FiOS used to be fantastic (and it is still good overall) but I swear they're compressing more the past few years. If the PQ is the same or better on Hulu I may be willing to give it a go again.
     
  12. Bigg

    Bigg Cord Cutter

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    That's an interesting take, but I just wonder how the MVPDs expect to remain competitive and actually make money off of them, other than just using broadband to promote them and push up their subscriber numbers for Wall Street. The MVPDs are notoriously slow and uninnvovative compared to Google, Sony, DISH, or Hulu, all of whom have various live TV options.

    I like the idea of channels as brands, which I think is very essential to understanding this whole shift, and you've talked quite a bit about that before. However, I have to think that a lot of cable channels are going to fail as MVPDs look to trim costs. The age of "channel tonnage" seems to be over in the sense that no one really cares about having 400 channels of garbage anymore, so I have to wonder if the combination of MVPDs trimming costs and skinny bundles, either by MVPDs or vMVPDs, will cause a cleaning out of those smaller, less watched channels. I agree that the big channels aren't going to be gone completely in 5 years, but what will they look like with millions fewer subscribers, and thus a lot less revenue to work with? That's the question across the industry, as channels have variable revenue, but relatively fixed costs, so they are going to have to cut those costs to match revenue, and the quality of their content will drop as a result, causing more people to cut the cord and so forth and so on. I don't see any happy ending for most of the traditional channels, other than a few that have a cult-like following like HGTV. I don't know where TBS or USA end up when the good shows are getting gobbled up by Netflix and Amazon, driving content costs up at the same time that their revenue is dropping like a rock.

    That's basically just re-building part of the classic Expanded Basic lineup, minus a bunch of channels for about the same price. It makes no sense, and that kind of crap is what makes people want to cut the cord that much more.

    I think it could go to $15/mo, if not more. The no ads version will generate less money over time if it were to stay at the same price, due to inflation and increased content costs, while the value of the subscriber with ads goes up significantly due to better targeting and monetization.
     
  13. NashGuy

    NashGuy Well-Known Member

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    We'll eventually get to a point where all the new/current content that shows up on linear broadcast/cable channels is also immediately available through at least one SVOD too, but it's going to take a little while to get there. (Well, for sports and certain news shows, it may take a long time.)

    At any rate, there are some trade-offs any way you go, and the only way to get *everything* is to subscribe to the entire cable channel bundle PLUS all of the various SVODs too. But very, very few people really want everything. They just want a good variety of content that includes all or nearly all of the series that they already watch.

    As you say, to each his own. And right now, each of us has more options than ever to put together our own custom bundles of content sources.

    The HD PQ on Hulu is pretty good, IMO. But don't just take my word for it, read this new article:

    One Thing We Don't Talk About When We Talk About Cord-Cutting

    Key quote from the reviewer, comparing Hulu vs. NBC on Dish: "now that I've adjusted to just how much better the AV experience is via on-demand streaming, even for maudlin (but addicting) fluff like This Is Us, I feel a little ashamed for subjecting my reference-quality home theater system to the garbage quality of satellite for as long as I did."
     
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  14. Bigg

    Bigg Cord Cutter

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  15. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    Yes the quality is good. FiOS quality used to be better. But over the last three years or so FiOS video quality has really taken a nose dive. I tried out most, if not all, of the streaming services last fall. And they all had better video quality than what my TiVo recordings from FiOS showed.

    I was completely shocked how much better it was. Since that did not used to be the case.
     
  16. CTLesq

    CTLesq Active Member

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    How do you address finding all that on demand content in one place? Meaning, I have season passes for what I enjoy watching and I don't have to think, oh show X airs today and show Y airs tomorrow because they appear in my shows and I watch them when I want.

    With on demand don't you have the additional issue of knowing when something aired, figuring out which app to go into (say on an AppleTV).

    I would very much like to understand how it works for you - thanks!
     
  17. Bigg

    Bigg Cord Cutter

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    FiOS got worse, and streaming got better. They had to cross over at some point. Some streaming services, especially Amazon, just look amazing. It probably doesn't hurt to have all that AWS bandwidth lying around.

    You were asking NashGuy, but I'll answer how I do it and see how we compare. For me, almost all the weekly stuff except a couple of HBO shows are OTA, so I record those on TiVo, i.e. BBT, 60 Minutes, SNL, about 6 PBS series, etc. I just see what shows up there. For HBO, I have to remember to check, and occasionally I get a few episodes behind on something and have a mini-binge. Everything else is either individual movies/documentaries/miniseries, or long series that drop all at once and I can binge them as I see fit, i.e. Netflix, Amazon, etc.
     
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  18. Series3Sub

    Series3Sub Well-Known Member

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    There are a great many things I actually care to watch that are NOT available On Demand or via Streaming Services (at the right bundle or channels not offered at all. Further, I watch quite a bit of content months after it airs or even save it to watch again, such as science shows that require a good viewing more than once, so the streaming service DVR limits of only saved for a month or so does not cut it, nor does it work when programming has been pulled from On Demand access from places like Netflix--I have MULTIPLE examples of such experiences and it really annoying, but I can keep my content on my local DVR for as LONG AS I LIKE and be in no rush to watch it, and having a 16 tuner DVR means never having tuner conflicts. I jumped into the whole On demand services and even tried the VMVPD's (live, linear streaming services), and they all fall short in MORE ways than one and inability to skip commercials (Dish AutoHop or TiVo Auto Skip or even the 30 second skip is quick and easy to get past the commercials while some OTT services force you to watch commercials) is a HUGE time waster while watching content with NO CONTROL. Also, the audio and even video quality can be hit and miss on OTT and VMVPD's don't offer DD5.1 and OTT's offer the inferior DD+. But the interesting Irony is that when such services either don't offer all the channels important to me or even channels that I watch on occasion--and I don't want to wait a year for content I want to watch today to be available on Netflix or Hulu, but also how LIMITING the channels or library of VOD is because there is a lot of content I want to watch that is airing NOW, and I am not interested in viewing OLD shows I had already seen or lack relevance to the here and now. In time the services that now are inexpensive will get as expensive as cable and satellite, and by then the consumer will have to consider all the options all over again and they will probably go back to cable or satellite, especially since NONE of the VMPVD's are making any money and won't for many years (cable and sat still make money) and even Netflix and Amazon don't even pay dividends because they have to put ALL the money back into the over budgeted content that cost billions because they don't make enough money to have any left over for dividends, and this practice has gone on for years, and even decades in some cases such as Amazon, except for one quarter during the last economic recession. I am glad the sloppy internet services are for you, but not for me nor a great many people.
     
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  19. mschnebly

    mschnebly Well-Known Member

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    That's what's great about choice. For you, you can set things up as you want it and keep shows as long as you want. For most, at least the folks I know, they really don't care if every show is 5.1 and besides keeping track of a few series they just sit down and see what's on. Netflix has so much new original stuff that you couldn't watch it all if you sat in front of the tube 24/7. Add in Amazon and for $15-$30 you are all set. Kids around here are YouTube addicts and watch on their phones or tablets. Movie night just pull up Vudu or iTunes Movies and see what's newly released to rent with very good sound and PQ.
     
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  20. BobCamp1

    BobCamp1 Well-Known Member

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    That's a huge problem for Tivo. They offer a high end DVR, but those high-end people have noticed the video quality sucks so now they're mainly streaming and don't really need a fancy DVR anymore.

    For the masses, the Tivo is way too expensive. Especially when you add the Minis to it. The cable TV subscription is also expensive. They can live with something cheap even if it means watching the occasional commercial. So they maybe buy a cheaper OTA DVR and/or just stream everything as well.

    So the market for high-end and low-end DVRs is shrinking, the low end has lots of competition, and that impacts both the Tivo product and the money coming in from the IP. Which is why nobody wants to buy the company(ies).
     

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