Tivo Requests FCC Waiver: New Devices!

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by BigJimOutlaw, Feb 8, 2013.

  1. Feb 8, 2013 #1 of 169
    BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

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    http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6017161971

    In a nutshell, they want to remove analog for the next generation, top to bottom. Unlike how they specifically named the Elite for the waiver last time, this time they are not indicating exactly what the devices are, but rather requesting a waiver for "upcoming DVR models."

    They are retaining the Premiere brand and will have one model with OTA.

    No release timeline is given.


    ===

    Some snippets....

    "In 2011, the Commission granted TiVo a waiver of the digital cable ready certification ... to permit TiVo to bring all-digital cable-only DVRs to the retail market for the first time. This petition requests an extension of that waiver to several new all-digital cable only devices and a slight extension of that waiver to cover devices that permit reception of digital broadcast ("DTV") signals."

    "TiVo ... has two years of consumer data showing that its audience no longer needs or wants analog tuning functionality in TiVo DVRs. Following the Commission's previous waiver, TiVo ... found that only 0.2% of customers commented about the absence of analog tuning capability and only 0.05% of customers ceased subscribing to TiVo service as a result. TiVo's technologically savvy customer base simply no longer has any use for analog television service and saddling them with the cost ($100 to $150 per device) of analog equipment they do not need and will never use serves no rational policy goal."

    " TiVo Inc. ... hereby petitions the Media Bureau for waiver. ... The waiver would permit TiVo to manufacture and sell new models of its innovative digital video recorders ("DVRs") without including vestigial analog tuners that increase costs and power consumption without providing any useful functionality for consumers."

    "The devices subject to the requested waivers are part of the next generation of TiVo's all-digital "Premiere" line, for which the Commission previously granted TiVo waivers..."

    "One model of TiVo' s new all-digital DVRs would include ATSC over-the-air reception capability"

    "... the costs of including now unnecessary analog functionality in TiVo DVRs have only increased. TiVo's base cost is approximately $10 for each analog tuner included in each device... When design and production costs are factored in, including this analog functionality increases the retail price of each device by between $100 and $150 depending on the model."
     
  2. Feb 8, 2013 #2 of 169
    tatergator1

    tatergator1 Well-Known Member

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    Tivo still plans to provide support for the OTA cord cutters:

    One model of TiVo' s new all-digital DVRs would include ATSC over-the-air reception capability; this model, therefore, requires waiver of both the DCR Rules and Section 15.117(b)'s dual analog/digital tuner requirement.

    No indication of number of tuners, but OTA support will be maintained.
     
  3. Feb 8, 2013 #3 of 169
    wmcbrine

    wmcbrine Well-Known Mumbler

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    Good to hear they're not abandoning ATSC. Analog can go as far as I'm concerned.

    Interesting accounting, $10 becomes $150.
     
  4. Feb 8, 2013 #4 of 169
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    We still have some analog only stations here. :( However I'm more mad at Charter for not simulcasting them, or better yet providing HD versions, then I am at TiVo for dumping analog support. It's about time analog went away completely.
     
  5. Feb 8, 2013 #5 of 169
    BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

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    Apparently there is a hard deadline of September 1, 2015 for terminating all remaining analog. Still a ways away, but it sucks that anybody would still be stuck with analog-only for some channels like Dan is.

    Won't miss analog in the slightest here.
     
  6. Feb 8, 2013 #6 of 169
    MikeAndrews

    MikeAndrews Registered abuser

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    Is the cost of the analog tuner that big of an expense or space taker? Is it a separate module?
     
  7. Feb 8, 2013 #7 of 169
    Stormspace

    Stormspace Electrocuted by TiVo

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    I wonder if they are including all customers still using analog equipment. I'm still using analog since it provides me with the most freedom with my shows.
     
  8. Feb 8, 2013 #8 of 169
    BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

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    They're claiming an expense of $10 per analog tuner and that the cost has actually risen over time. With the analog tuners would also come mpeg2 encoding and memory chips. So I suppose it adds up some in cost, PCB space, and power consumption.
     
  9. Feb 8, 2013 #9 of 169
    csell

    csell Member

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    My cable company also has a handful of channels still only available in analog.
     
  10. Feb 8, 2013 #10 of 169
    jtrain

    jtrain New Member

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    This has been my biggest hangup in jumping to Premiere 4 or XL4 (cable only devices).

    Some time ago i had cut the cord for about two years and watched strictly off a homemade HD antenna on my S3 OLED (lifetime'd). About a year and a half ago, i went back to cable (Comcast) and currently have two 2-tuner Premieres and my S3 OLED still going strong (the S3 is still on the HD antenna (only) and is not connected to cable at all, but I can transfer shows from each of the Premieres to it and from it as needed).

    In the future, I may again cut the cord, but don't want to lose the flexibility of having TiVo for OTA (and availability to their latest boxes). While all 3 of my current boxes will accept OTA, it'd be nice to keep up (to some degree) with newer hardware as it comes out, that still has OTA capability.
     
  11. Feb 8, 2013 #11 of 169
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    We actually have about 30, but only a few that I actually watch. (i.e. Comedy Central, A&E, FX & MSNBC) However if I had kids it would be a bigger issue as all of the kids channels, like Nick, Disney, Cartoon Network, ABC Family, etc..., are still analog only. What's really weird is that there are like 3 channels that are simulcast. I can tune them on both my Premiere Elite and my wife's S2. So why they can't just do that with the rest I don't know. If they could then I could get rid of my 2 tuner Premiere and use my Elite for everything.
     
  12. Feb 8, 2013 #12 of 169
    Loach

    Loach Member

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    When I bought my Premiere 4 last month I was thinking I would lose the handful of Cox analog stations in my area that did not have an equivalent HD channel. I even gave some thought to just getting the 2-tuner Premiere but realized the only analog channel I had ever recorded from that group was TVLand and was willing to lose that. Then when I completed the initial setup, I was surprised to see all the SD channels still there - didn't realize Cox was simulcasting them in digital. Too bad Charter is not doing the same for you.

    What happens when a cable company goes all digital? Do you have to have a STB or cable card at each TV then to get the basic package or do they just start providing more channels in clear QAM?
     
  13. Feb 8, 2013 #13 of 169
    innocentfreak

    innocentfreak Well-Known Member

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    90 days would put it in May. I forget how far after we saw the Elite. I believe it was released in September, but forget when TiVo filed the original waiver request.

    This would put them May-July depending on the FCC. With the Mini not out yet, I could almost see them now waiting to release the Mini until the new boxes were announced.

    3 days from now, 2/11, is 3 years since TiVo sent out the invitations to their event on March 2nd to announce the Premiere.
     
  14. Feb 8, 2013 #14 of 169
    BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

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    Depends on the cableco. Most deliver the local channels in clear QAM and encrypt the national channels. So you would at the very least need a digital-capable TV to see the locals, but you need some type of STB/cablecard to view the rest.

    I believe cablecos are now allowed to encrypt the locals too if they wish, but I don't think most do at this point.
     
  15. Feb 8, 2013 #15 of 169
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    Actually the FCC just granted the cable cos permission to encrypt all QAM channels, even locals, if they switch to all digital. So for the ones that do that you'll need a box or CableCARD for every TV.
     
  16. Feb 8, 2013 #16 of 169
    tatergator1

    tatergator1 Well-Known Member

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    A box at each TV, often referred to as DTA's (Digital Transport Adapter). I know Comcast began the switch to all digital at least a year ago. They offered the DTA's free initially, but are now charging for each one. Video quality may be better, but the conversion is actually more beneficial for the provider since they save a lot of the bandwidth that used to carry the analog signal. They also get to charge you per TV connected (via the box) again as it was back in the 70's and 80's. The only caveat to the cable company is dealing with their legacy customers who have been running analog without any boxes in the home for the last 10+ years and having to send techs out to install DTA's in those homes.
     
  17. Feb 8, 2013 #17 of 169
    rainwater

    rainwater Active Member

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    Charter has been simulcasting 2-99 for us since last year. I don't know how long they have been doing it with cable box users, but they finally started mapping 2-99 to digital on my cablecard TiVos.
     
  18. Feb 8, 2013 #18 of 169
    Loach

    Loach Member

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    That's what I was afraid of. Currently in my bedroom I have an HDTV with no STB. I get all the local channels from Cox in HD via clear QAM. But I also get the national channels 2 through 70 in analog and it sounds like I would lose those without a STB if Cox went all-digital.

    Of course, I'd like to put a Tivo Mini on that TV anyway and I've heard nothing of Cox threatening to go all-digital yet in my area. Hopefully the Mini will be out before Cox would ever go all-digital....
     
  19. Feb 8, 2013 #19 of 169
    davezatz

    davezatz Funkadelic

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    Probably related to the recent TiVo survey which mentioned a 300 HD hour 4 tuner device with OTA support. And to set the stage for a Premiere replacement towards the end of the year or early next year.
     
  20. Feb 8, 2013 #20 of 169
    BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

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    The 2011 petition was submitted on June 7. They got the approval exactly 90 days later in September during CEDIA. Then released it in October. Is 90 days automatic? In the original petition they said their request met certain requirements to be considered within 90 days, but they're not giving it any mention this time.
     

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