TiVo now offers movies from all major studios (HD Downloads Also)

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by ldhurley, May 30, 2008.

  1. dig_duggler

    dig_duggler Member

    Sep 18, 2002
    Birmingham, AL


    I'm not sure where this is going. If this matter is as egregious as you are indicating, it should be taken up in the courts. You mentioned "Most programming on cable channels more than four years old is required to be closed captioned". Is this an acceptable timeframe for coming up with a solution for these services? The five year window put forth by Netflix? On original implementation (before a market is even established)? There is a "convenience of immediacy", but it is a very young technology in terms of being a reasonable choice for many and while you may find the alternatives unacceptable (traditional B&M stores) they still vastly outsell these new services and are held as the standard.

    These are emerging technologies. Without the new features, bells and whistles there might not be a large enough market for them. While you use a Netflix projection, it's just a projection. We are not there yet.

    NA9D seems to be coming from a practical business perspective, whereas you are championing for the impaired. Two very, very different viewpoints.

    And just to weigh in, your analogy does not hold. Implementing handicap ramps in some architecture might be challenging, but there are a myriad of examples and standards to use and adhere to. There is no known solution for the closed captioning issue with the new technology and as laid out it is a difficult problem not yet solved.

    I think everyone here agrees these things should be implemented. We just have differing opinions on the pace. Some here find it reasonable to establish that the market is there, profitable and thriving first, whereas it appears you have the POV that these things should be established much quicker.

    Edit: also the title is totally misleading.
  2. bicker

    bicker bUU

    Nov 9, 2003
    That is the standard set forth in the regulations. However, note that the clock has (i.e., should have) already started on broadband downloads.

    New businesses: four years.

    That is obviously not true, given the information provided earlier that AppleTV supports closed captions. There are known solutions. All that is required now is the appropriate will and the prioritization.
  3. lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

    Aug 31, 2003
    This aspect of the discussion is headed toward an argument over trivial semantics. It's a problem, period. Whether to one person that is synonymous with the term "bug-a-boo" while to another it is not or they both have different definitions is not the issue.

    No one likes to be left out of the distribution of rights and privileges. To many this smacks of being considered a second class citizen. Whether this is in fact the case or not is not the subject of this discussion. Whether a person's debilitations are justification for special treatment or not is also not the matter at hand.

    I don't find it amazing. People can become highly passionate - sometimes even irrationally so - over just about anything. I do find the attitudes and actions of many zealots to be distasteful merely because of the extremity of their behavior, not necessarily related to the validity of their argument.

    Adding an additional stream is no big deal, at all. Getting it to be compatible with legacy equipment can be, but in this case, not. There are already definitions for digital Closed Captioning, and while not every digital receiver may not be able to resolve the stream, none of them will croak on it.

    Not significantly, it doesn't. Captioning text requires less than 1Kbps, uncompressed. Compressed it can run as little as 200 - 300 bps. Compared to the 20,000,000 bps of some 1080i HD material, that's nothing at all.

    'Not any significant amount. Even an ancient Altair or IMSAI 8080 would find this to require so little CPU power as to be absurd.
  4. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

    Sep 15, 2006
    This is a GREAT step forward in making out TiVo's better & become the "ONE BOX" solution...


    For FREQUENT HIGH VOLUME renters.... This is still not the best solution for us...

    I have just obtained a Netflix/Roku box for $99. I love it... HDMI up conversion to 1080i...

    UNLIMITED movie watching, NO 24 Hour time limit, ONE FLAT FEE...

    I am allready paying $49.99 a month (8 at a time DVD rental), and it includes unlimited movie downloads (Streams). I can watch as many movies as I want. NO Time limit.

    The selection is about the same as Amazon/unbox. A few things are available that Amazon doesn't have & vice versa.

    Netflix/Roku box IS capable of doing HD. Netflix will be offering HD movie streaming soon. When is unknown. I have a blu-ray player & it will be a LONG LONG time before ANY HD download will be as good a quality as just playing the Blu-ray disc. TiVo isn't capable of doing 6.1/7.1 lossess audio anyways.

    CinemaNow has a great selection. Now if they can offer a subscription service as well as a "pay as you go" service it would be great.

    Many people have said that the Movie/TV studios are limiting the download services to a 24 hour rental. However, NETFLIX DOESN'T have this LIMITATION!

    For many a "Pay as you go" download service is the best program. For others... we do want/NEED a Subscription based service.

    Anyways... Keep up the good work TiVo.... Get us a subscription service though! PLEASE!

  5. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

    Sep 15, 2006


    I noticed a few posts about Closed Captioning.

    Currently Federal law does NOT legally require Closed Captioning/Subtitleing on:

    Movie theater showings of movies
    Downloaded/Streamed video (of any type) content

    There are serveral House Bills/Senate Bills pending in congress that will require Closed Captioning in the future for DVD's (All versions), & Movie theater.

    Downloaded video content is still being discussed. As what do you do about "Amatuer" Video from such services as "YouTube.com"???

    Discussion about CC/Sub on Downloaded video content has been suggested for "Commercial" content, &/or content that you can't/Don't obtain for free.

    If you want the Senate/House Bills to pass that would require CC/Sub on DVD's & at the Movie theaters... Write you Congressmen/Senators.

  6. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

    Jan 31, 2002
    Welcome to TiVo NA9D!
  7. Amnesia

    Amnesia The Question

    Jan 30, 2005
    Boston, MA
    That's fine, but if HD support is important to a consumer, I can't imagine that they'd buy the box now and simply hope that when HD movies actually come that the picture quality is acceptable.

    Why not wait until HD movies are really available and read some reviews to learn how well HD support is actually implemented? For all we know, Roku will offer a new box by that time that will better handle HD movies...
  8. bibinkona

    bibinkona New Member

    Dec 10, 2002
    Great that Tivo cuts deals and is finally making money. This is probably wrong spot to post this but I have been looking for solutions to Amazon unbox/Tivo problem for last 3 hours. In short, Amazon ripped me off saying two movies downloaded and there is nothing on Tivo.

    Yes I am connected to broadband and Tivo has been updating itself via internet for two years.
    Yes I went to manage my account in Tivo and said to snoop at my viewing and permit downloads.
    Yes I restarted my Tivo.
    Yes I linked my account with Amazon.
    Yes I confirmed my linked account with Amazon with the correct Tivo unit in the house.
    Yes I can connect to this Tivo via my desktop computer.
    Yes I have transferred movies from my Tivo to my desktop.
    NO, there is no TIVOCAST anywhere on my Tivo
    Yes, I have the HD TIVO and fully paid up account.

    I have received zero support from Amazon unbox rip off.
    So far Tivo support suggests that I permit by Tivo to download. IT IS!

    If this in wrong spot. My apology. If someone could direct me to someone who might have an answer I'd appreciate it.

    If anyone wants to contact me by email - here is toss away email address just remove the exclamation marks before sending
  9. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

    Sep 15, 2006
    Honestly, I am not to concerned. I care more about quality than convience.

    It will be a VERY LONG TIME... before HD downloads will even come close the quality you can get from a BLU-RAY disc.

    TiVo as well as Apple, VuDu, & even the Netflix/Roku boxes are NOT capable of processing DTS-HD/Dolby-HD lossless 5.1/6.1/7.1 sound. (Or sometimes known as "Master Audio")

    So for me.... if a movie is on Blu-Ray I will watch it on that format instead of downloading anyways.

    It would be nice if Netflix/Roku had HD downloads today but they DON'T.

    It would be nice if Amazon/Unbox/TiVo/CinemaNow had Subscription plans, but they DON'T.

    When it comes to HD downloads.... The big HD downloads that I would make use of, are downloads of HD TV shows... Not the movies. Giving me the capability to download a HD TV show I missed.

    I would also consider downloading HD Movies that were made prior to 5.1/6.1/7.1 Surround sound & have been remastered for HD. Such as "CASABLANCA". They are currently re-mastering "Casablanca" for HD release on HDNET as well as Blu-Ray later & possibly HD download. Since it doesn't have surround sound. I would consider downloading.

    Honestly, there ISN'T a PERFECT solution yet.

    The perfect solution would be HD downloads via subscription, unlimited, no Time restriction, with 5.1/6.1/7.1 DTS-HD/Dolby-HD lossless audio. All for one flat fee of $49.99 or LESS per month.

  10. NA9D

    NA9D New Member

    May 26, 2008
    Algonquin, IL
    There indeed is a 24 hour restriction, but Netflix is following a different business model and I'll explain.

    Netflix is giving you unlimited viewing of its streaming library as long as you have a Netflix account. Since it is unlimited, a 24 hour rental window doesn't make sense and with Netflix, there is no storage of movies on your box as it doesn't have storage. So if you watch half a movie today, you still have to download the other half later.

    Now, Netflix is not going to have new releases or even HD likely anytime soon basically for cost reasons. Every movie that is digitally downloaded requires paying a fee to the content owners. These fees are relatively low cost for older, library titles, but much higher for new releases and newer movies. Netflix would go broke paying fees to the content owners if they allowed you to have unlimited viewing of new titles. If they want to get new content, they will have to start charging more for subs or charge rental fees for the movies.

    Netflix can do it's physical media business like it does because the licensing of physical media is completely different than digital media. Digital media has separate licenses for purchase and another license for rental. In fact with many studios they are different business units. In order for a title to be put up for rental or sale electronically, it has to have the permissions of the content owners.

    The sticky widget in this is that movies in the last 10 years have electronic distribution factored into their contracts with content providers. But titles older than 10 years do not. Therefore for an older title to be available digitally, the studio must get the permissions from EVERY SINGLE owner of content in that movie. Content is screenplay, soundtrack, possibly special effects, costumes, etc. If one content owner does not agree, it isn't cleared for digital distribution. If a content owner has passed away, then the estate has to approve it, etc. It's a mess and studios have literally floors of lawyers doing nothing but clearing content for digital distribution.

    Digital distribution rights is a big deal these days. This is what the writers strike was all about. Netflix has to pay for every movie they distribute via their new box. They are literally losing money on it. What they really hope is that most people who buy it will start using their DVD service and getting new releases from them and occasionally supplementing it with the digital downloads. They really don't want a million customers doing nothing but watching content streamed day in and day out. It's got to be costing them a small fortune...
  11. NA9D

    NA9D New Member

    May 26, 2008
    Algonquin, IL
    Agreed. Vudu classifies their HD as broadcast quality. It's quite good. And the sound is in DD5.1 simply because the Broadcom hardware in the box can't support higher than 5.1 right now. I suspect that future generations of boxes will be able to support it. They stream all their audio in DD+ so it could handle just about any amount of channels given enough bandwidth.

    In reality though the thing needed to improve HD quality is more bandwidth. Vudu uses 4 Mb/sec to stream HD. If all of us had 20 Mb/sec or higher connections, you could get an even better picture streaming at a much higher bandwidth. The technology is really limited by what the majority of consumers have available to them for connection to the net....
  12. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

    Sep 15, 2006

    I have a 20mb/sec Broadband connection. However if you read the "FINE PRINT" for my service area that speed is only "Burst" speed.

    My actually "SUSTAINED" "Crusing" speed actually only "Averages" about 10-15mbps.

    Plenty fast enough for a good HD feed.

    Keep in mind though, that the companies providing HD downloads also has to have the equipment (Servers) that can handle those kind of speeds as well. So it's not just getting the "Content" as well as the higher speed servers.

    Eventually sometime in the next 10 years, we WILL be able to get full Blu-ray quality (Audio & Picture) down the internet feed. Just not anytime real soon.

    Just to make a clarification on HD-Audio. There are 2 parts. The number of channels. Ie 5.1/6.1/7.1. Then their is compression quality & Type. There is a difference between DTS & Dolby. One other point to make out. Currently ONLY available on Blu-ray & HD-DVD's is LOSSLESS audio, Sometimes refered to as "Master Audio". This is audio that has not been compressed & is at its full digital size & originally recorded from the "Master Tapes". So any "Broadcom" chip would also have to support lossless audio as well as the additional channels.

  13. NA9D

    NA9D New Member

    May 26, 2008
    Algonquin, IL
    With Vudu this isn't a problem. Your box operates in a giant P2P network so all you need are enough peers serving you your movie and you can get whatever speed you need! :)
  14. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

    Jan 10, 2002

    thats neat but how does it handle that fact that most people have asymetrical speeds and uploads might be like 1/10th of download speed?
  15. Scyber

    Scyber Former ReplayTV User

    Apr 25, 2002
    Well I'd have to question how much the audio really matters to most people. I am familiar with about a dozen of my friends HD setups. Of those dozen, only 2 have a proper 5.1 speaker setup. Most of them simply rely on the 2 front speakers in their TV. Some have a subwoofer thrown in. In my experience, audio quality falls very far behind video quality in peoples priorities.

    Personally, I hate rear speakers & surround sound. I find it distracting from the movie.
  16. NA9D

    NA9D New Member

    May 26, 2008
    Algonquin, IL
    Very simple. Vudu caps uploads around 250 to 300 kbps. So your total upload speed doesn't matter. Your box only serves portions of movies maybe a couple times a week for 10 or 20 minutes at a time. It's very unobtrusive.

    But it's easy to get a 4 Mb stream or even a 10 or 20 Mb stream if you have enough peers sending at 300 kbps.
  17. mike_camden

    mike_camden New Member

    Dec 11, 2006
    My fear with all of this is the future trend I have been reading about with ISPs charging more or even breaking contracts for those who download too much namely Comcast and TW). From what I've read, the ISPs aren't being forthcoming with what that upper limit is. It's not an issue for me now since I avoid P2P and Torrents; however, if devices/models that offer HD downloads take off, bandwidth caps are going to be a real issue. My other concern, as has been already noted by many here and elsewhere) is the 24 hour limit.
  18. David Platt

    David Platt Mouse Master TCF Club

    Dec 13, 2001
    Portland, OR
    Their selection is about the same as Amazon? Seriously?

    While the total number of titles available might be similar, the titles available through Amazon are far and away better than Netflix's selection. As already pointed out in the thread, Netflix has virtually no new or big titles available for streaming, while Amazon has a very good selection of the latest movies.
  19. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

    Sep 15, 2006
    You do make a good point there. There are I am sure millions of americans out there that don't have surround sound systems at all, as well as just using the speakers that come with the TV that they are using. Although those have gotten much better in the last 15 years. My mother for one has a very nice 50" HD Pioneer elite plasma, yet doesn't have surround sound.

    However I will point out a few facts.
    Some form of 5.1 audio systems have been sold since as learly as 1990. Since about 2000 99% of all receivers sold have at least 5.1 capability. 90% of all receivers sold today now have at least 6.1 capability.

    After contacting a freind of mine at Pioneer for any statistics that he might know of. Pioneer alone has sold over 15 million 5.1 capable receivers here in the USA alone since 1990.

    I can understand how you might find the sound coming from the "Other" speakers as distracting. Yet keep in mind that the AUDIO is as MUCH a part of the Movie experiance & part of the film as the picture is.

    Example.... George Lucas the king of Star Wars, Indiana Jones etc... Has spent over a BILLION dollars on developing HIGH quality audio. The THX ceritification process is MORE about the audio quality then the picture quality.

    Another interesting point. The sound budget for the NEW Indiana Jones film represents almost 30% of the entire budget to produce this movie. The New Star Wars Clone movie. The audio budget is still the second most significant part of budget just shy of the 40% spent on animation.

    Here in the Dallas area.... An average of 250 "Home Theater" rooms are being installed on a weekly basis. There are over 60 companies here in the Dallas Fort Worth area that are in business just to design & install such outfits.

    One other point... We are currently searching for a new home in the Dallas area market. Aproximately in the $350,000 range. Which gets us about a 3500 Square foot home. 90% of the floor plans we look at in this size/price range include a "Media room" with sound proofing ready for a "home theater" installation.

    So yes... I do agree. There are MILLIONS of americans WITHOUT 5.1 or better sound systems. I would still be willing to bet though that the majority of those homes without 5.1 are medium to lower income families though.

    But like anything else.... Just like Blu-ray, Movie/Video/TV show downloads are still in it's infancy. The service, cost, features & quality will only get better with time. I remember my first cable modem in 1994, Cost me $100 a month and all I got was 1mpbs download with 128kbps upload. Now I pay $30 a month & I get 20mpbs down & 2mbps up! (Yet, even though cable modems have been available for almost 15 years, there are still those on 56k phone modems who can get DSL/Cable but still choose not too, or can't afford it.)

  20. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

    Sep 15, 2006
    I sure hope they don't do bandwidth caps!

    I have my slingbox running almost 9 hours a day everyday at my office in my restuarant. (I am self-employed so no boss to answer too, other than the wife & kids, LOL). My slingbox is sliinging content to me at about 1.2mpbs on average!


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