TIVO not following posted payment terms

Discussion in 'TiVo Premiere DVRs' started by grubbscd, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. smbaker

    smbaker Well-Known Member

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    They'd also need to define the words "purchase" and "third party retailer", lest someone conclude that the terms don't apply because they bought it on ebay for $100.01. It really takes a legal 'wall of text' (or wall of fine print) to get something like this done right with no ambiguities or loopholes.

    Perhaps he did in fact not know, it really doesn't matter. It's not a loophole, it's a straightforward reading of the ToS. Bring it to a lawyer and I bet they'll interpret it the same way the OP did. Tivo has had plenty of time to fix the ToS yet they choose not to.

    That section applies to Tivos purchased at $99.99. Not $49.99. Not Tivos with an original MSRP of $99.99. Not Tivos that 'should have been sold for $99.99 but weren't for reasons X Y and Z'. It says at $99.99. If Tivo had meant something else, they should have written something else.
     
  2. orangeboy

    orangeboy yes, I AM orangeboy!

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  3. smbaker

    smbaker Well-Known Member

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    If one argues that 2.1 applies and therefore excludes 2.2, and both subsections 2.1.1 and 2.1.2 do not apply then there is no section in the ToS that applies. The box then has no service? :)

    Section 2.2 is very broad, "for all other Tivo boxes". I think the argument could be made that a box that is covered by neither 2.1.1 or 2.1.2 is by extension not covered by 2.1 and thus falls into the catch-all of "all other Tivo boxes".

    I really wonder what kind of person wrote this thing up, they're referring to their product as a "box". They don't sell boxes. They sell DVRs. Maybe they saved a few bucks and had one of the programmers that was supposed to be implementing HDUI work on it instead of the lawyers.
     
  4. orangeboy

    orangeboy yes, I AM orangeboy!

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    I would place blame solely on the retailers for not disclosing that the consumer is purchasing a TiVo box @$99.99 plus any additional discounts offered by the retailer. Should the retailers detail which discounts are applied towards the final price? Absolutely. Could the TiVo Payment Plans outline better reflect such discounts? Certainly.

    "Box" is one of the recommended terms.


    Source
     
  5. smbaker

    smbaker Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I agree there, the retailers need to do better and should disclose that a monthly fee is required, should disclose it right up there in plain view of the where the up-front price is show, should include it in the description field in the shopping card, and should clearly show the full amount of the monthly fee. That would solve everything. However, let's face it, the retailers don't want the customers to know there is a monthly fee, or how much it is, or that a 1yr term is required. It's in their best interest if those details 'slip by' the consumer.

    I disagree that the merchants should try to obfuscate the language of the transaction by writing it up as 'purchased at $99.99 plus merchant discount'. The act of the purchase is done by the consumer and it's still purchased 'at $49.95'.

    Regardless of the merchant's responsibility, it's still a poorly written terms of service that doesn't define what service a Tivo Premiere purchased 'at $49.95' is eligible for.

    I still think DVR is a better word than 'box', especially when used in a terms of service. Box is ambiguous, as the 'Tivo Box' could refer to the electronic device I put in my entertainment center as well as the cardboard thing I put in the recycling bin. Generic terms might be useful for press media and and CSRs, but not necessarily in the document that defines your service relationship with the customer.
     
  6. Series3Sub

    Series3Sub Well-Known Member

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    That's what class actions are for, except now the conservative majority has made such possible redress by individuals pretty much impossible now for those cheated out of a few dollars but on a massive scale of millions of customers. Our Supreme Court is bought and paid for.
     
  7. slowbiscuit

    slowbiscuit FUBAR

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    +1, my interpretation exactly. I get the impression that the lawyers were hired at the same time as the HDUI Flash programmers... :eek:

    As I said in another thread, I don't understand why Tivo's marketing folks don't enforce clear disclosure of terms with major retailers like Amazon. All this crap does is lead to more refurbs on woot and tivo.com.
     
  8. aadam101

    aadam101 Tell me a joke

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    That's the point. He shouldn't have to "think." Tivo should spell it out. We shouldn't have dozens of threads (sometimes several pages long) to try and figure out what the price of a box is and why.
     
  9. Stormspace

    Stormspace Electrocuted by TiVo

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    Meh. It's a contract and if TiVo wrote it poorly they don't get the option to not honor it. If you don't keep your sub for a year, they'll certainly hold that contract up to you and get the early service termination fee from you. A contract works both ways, that's the way they are designed to protect both parties from this type of thing.
     
  10. scandia101

    scandia101 Just the facts ma'am

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    That cardboard thing you put in the recycling bin is a carton.
     
  11. smbaker

    smbaker Well-Known Member

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    Class action lawsuits are to make lawyers money. There's a simple remedy if you're unhappy with the DVR. Return it. ... or, be an informed buyer and research the forums before you purchase it in the first place. While the ToS is clearly poorly written and incorrectly interpreted by Tivo, consumers aren't helpless babies. Just don't buy the thing.

    As far as the 'conservative majority', we currently have liberal-majority senate and a liberal-majority executive branch, and half the republican party that is not really conservative anymore. It's doing wonders for the economy. Maybe more lawsuits should be the next stimulus package, enable some job growth in the legal sector.

    </disengage politics mode>

    Acutally, I think it's probably the same guy. If there was more than one HDUI programmer, it'd be done by now.

    We don't really need dozens of threads to figure out the price. That can be summed up pretty much with one call to Tivo to ask what the price is (Q:"I bought a Tivo from amazon.com for $49.95, what's monthly service cost?" A: "$19.99"). We're arguing about the minutia of the ToS. For an intellectual perspective, I find it interesting. From a practical perspective, it really doesn't matter as (absent legal challenge) Tivo is going to charge the price they want to charge.
     
  12. daveak

    daveak Series 3 Novice

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    This is why we need so many lawyers, everyone is parsing everything they can for the one word that gets them something extra. So much for intent, just play dumb and take all the advantage you can. Lawyer up and argue about every word and meaning and nuance. A contract is only as good as the person who signs it, an agreement only means something if you get all the words clear to every single person who can read.
     
  13. indychris

    indychris New Member

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    That may do well if you're in the corrugated industry, but this is real world public understanding here. Do a google for images of 'box' and tell me what you get.
     
  14. lessd

    lessd Well-Known Member

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    Let see a thread on the meaning of the word box when the thread title is about payments to TiVo. We also talked about some class action stuff. The payments are quite simple now, if you purchase a non refurb TP from anywhere (except TiVo itself) you will pay $19.99/month. From Nov 14th 2010 to Jan 2011 sometimes one could get a better deal, but now getting a better deal on a non refurb TP is like winning a lottery. (I am not referring to any TP one may purchase that already has Lifetime Service on it). Refurb TPs have a TSN that tells TiVo it's is a refurb TP.
     
  15. lessd

    lessd Well-Known Member

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    Jan 23, 2005
    CT
    Let see a thread on the meaning of the word box when the thread title is about payments to TiVo. We also talked about some class action stuff. The payments are quite simple now, if you purchase a non refurb TP from anywhere (except TiVo itself) you will pay $19.99/month. From Nov 14th 2010 to Jan 2011 sometimes one could get a better deal, but now getting a better deal on a non refurb TP is like winning a lottery. (I am not referring to any TP one may purchase that already has Lifetime Service on it). Refurb TPs have a TSN that tells TiVo it's is a refurb TP.
     
  16. h2oskierc

    h2oskierc I'm a 2-Tuner

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    BRAVO! You, sir/mam are a scholar and a gentlemen/lady!
     
  17. Stormspace

    Stormspace Electrocuted by TiVo

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    We wouldn't be like this if corporations didn't do the same in an effort to avoid liability for their mistakes. It's gotten to the point that people are unwilling to give an inch because of corporations putting their earnings reports ahead of their customers.
     

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