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Discussion in 'TiVo Help Center' started by JBB1972, Nov 23, 2015.
Yep. My router is just that. No switch.
So, according to Tivo, you must plug your Tivo mini directly into your router, not a switch. Where do you plug in everything else?
my network is a mess router switches time capsule etc.
Since you quoted but apparently willfully misunderstood my statement, I will respond. No where in my statement does it indicate that Tivo will not or does not support the builtin router switches which are the standard for almost all modern routers. My use of "any other switch" also clarifies this issue unless of course one wants to be "purposely ignorant" for the goal of making some abstract argument.
The "straw" arguments you make regarding what "Tivo" is "really saying" are all based on misrepresentations which I am pretty sure you know already.
The underlying issue for Tivo is simple. Due to the variances and vagaries involved in the numerous manufacturers designs and products, some switches do not play well with each other and / or some devices. The problem with "green/ power saving" switches and Tivo devices being unable to reconnect to the network is well documented and this is just one of the most common problems, there are others resulting in the oft seen recommendation to use fixed/ static IP's for all Tivos.
Almost all "support" departments push for streamlined products and procedures and because of the numerous variables which the use of additional switches introduce, Tivo simply decided to not support the use of "additional" switches as the use of these devices could easily take an extraordinary amount of support time without any positive result. This also is probably the reason why Tivo does strongly support the use of MoCA on most all of their modern equipment.
NONE of my devices are connected directly to the router. Three desktops, three STBs, three TiVos, a video game console, BluRay player, and a AVR; all connected via wired ethernet to switches.
But I've permanently assigned IP addresses to all of those devices, save the desktops.
I'm just trying to clarify the position of Tivo that posters in this thread have stated. Many state the Tivo will not support ANY switch, some state that Tivo will only support switches built into a router.
I think that's a little like saying there are so many gasoline formulations available that Ford cannot support their automobiles unless you only use gasoline purchased from ExxonMobile.
It is certainly not my intent to be argumentative. However, since Tivo touts Ethernet connectivity on their products I believe they should either support generally accepted Ethernet networks that function with other standard Ethernet devices or they should advise potential purchasers that their products are not supported on generally accepted networks. If Tivo has a problem with certain switches it's most likely Tivo's fault. If Tivo's need static addresses it's because they don't request DHCP renewal timely or some other internal fault. Not all routers default to unlimited listing the ARP table.
What's next, is Tivo going to tell us we can't use blue Cat5 cable, only white is acceptable?
Anyone's that done the unhappy dance of calling their ISP's tech support will attest that those script readers won't support switches either. If it's not plugged directly into their modem/router, they won't touch it. And they will force you through steps to eliminate unsupported devices.
I get it from the support argument. Still don't agree with it.
Wow, I have my Tivo and Mini plugged into a switch. Didn't know I was that much of a rebel.
I just noticed this thread. I started a similar one a couple of hours ago after completing my tivo install. I have three minis. All connected just fine with moca. None worked with ethernet.
I don't understand tivo's issue with switches. Any network that doesn't use a switch is a wireless network, which is not supported. So if switches are an issue, except for the ports on a wireless router, then tivo is, indirectly, proclaiming reliability issues. Moca or install at your own risk seems to be the message I'm hearing.
I have above average network knowledge, although an experienced ccna or better knows much more about daily network maintenance. My router is pfsense on a fanless mini-itx j1900 supermicro motherboard and more. A Netgear R6300V2 is my wireless access point. My home is wired with cat6. I did it and tested it multiple times.
No mini could stream recordings or see live tv, but all could see the dvr, the guide, all recordings listed, connect to tivo servers, and watch hulu while on ethernet. All worked perfectly on moca. Oddly, they could also connect using a travel router configured as a wireless client for devices that only have wired ethernet. All switches are current tp-link both smart and basic models, although I also tried a non-green old netgear GS108T V1 without success.
So, my take-away is use moca if you have it. Wireless clients if you don't. Wired Ethernet is hit or miss, mostly miss except in the most basic network configurations.
Note - I did get each mini to work wired from the R6300V2 while the premiere was using the wireless client travel router for network access. Each mini was purchased used and tested in this way before I converted from Dish to comcast. None would work wired from their own outlet. Weird.
I consider this to be a Tivo issue that needs to be addressed, until someone proves otherwise that my experience is not typical.
Also, for those who freak at the concept of firewalls, none were used or harmed during this experience. All are pointed outward at what might invade and nothing was noted on any intrusion detection system I'm using. All let my minis talk to tivo without interference and none look at the inside network. Besides, 100% of my problems related to the premier talking to the mini, and vice versa. No firewalls there, especially since they could communicate well in all ways EXCEPT stream from the premiere to the minis.
Everything on my network is plugged into switches. All my Tivos and Minis work perfectly fine, supported or not.
For the network branches that have minis, what is your configuration? I'm trying to see if there is something in common with what works vs what doesn't. Maybe a pattern will show up.
My wired ethernet network works perfectly, except for tivo. I think of it as a tivo issue that allows erratic performance over wired ethernet. Maybe some detailed reports will help tivo figure out how to eliminate this issue. It's to their benefit to allow reliable functional mini access to dvr servers using common wired ethernet.
To this end, I can understand why wireless minis are hit or miss. Many home wireless networks are hit or miss for all activities. Streaming brings out the flaws since perfection is required. Putting a buffer in an inside network room to room stream is not practical.
Your general exceptionalism probably helps in making it work.
Really the only way to get to the bottom of this would be to do a traffic capture and see what the mini is doing when it's not connecting.
HDRyder9 is absolutely correct. connecting multiple switches together is not a big deal, as long as the hardware can support it. It wouldn't surprise me to find that some of the less expensive unmanaged switches don't have the memory capability to deal with more than just a handful of MAC addresses at a time.
That's probably why they have taken the dumbed-down stance of "switches are not supported" - trying to weed through how many switches you might have in place and how many addresses they can handle is just out of the realm of what they should be expected. There's a reason that a layer2 (no routing, just switching) Cisco switches cost thousands, and even end of life units still go for more than anything at a big box store.
OTOH, saying that "the mini and the DVR (or really, anything that's connected) must be directly connected to the same switch and that must be the ONLY switch in the network" is a perfectly valid (IMO) customer service stance.
I would like to see printed specs, recommendations, or other directly from tivo about how to best see a mini work on a wired network. It's not useful to use forum speculation, bickering, or trolls to further the discussion.
My post was hardly "forum speculation" - it's from years of having to deal with escalated technical support issues, and having to "draw a line in the sand", even when some variations of a configuration works just fine, so that the level 1 support people can work within a configuration that consistently works.
You have repeated multiple times about your router (which is good - I'd probably use the same thing if I didn't have the equipment I have) and a single wireless router that is configured in "AP mode". Even though the device is SUPPOSED to bridge all 5 ports together as an unmanaged switch, there have been reports of the WAN/Internet port not effectively being the same as the other 4 LAN ports. Have you tried moving your uplink connection (to the switch hanging off your router via the wall jack) from that WAN/Internet port to one of the LAN ports?
Also, I didn't see how the other Tivo devices are connected, i.e. to the same AP/switch, or to the switch hanging off your router, etc.? a back of the napkin network diagram would be very helpful if you're still looking to troubleshoot this.
P.S. want Tivo's official printed recommendations, they're here, as vague as they may be: https://support.tivo.com/articles/Installation_Setup_Configuration/TiVo-Mini-Setup
Agree about traffic capture. I don't know how and don't care to learn. I'm not the first or only one with this problem. Tivo needs to do the traffic capture and fix how they send info over tcp/ip. Then provide good documentation that reflect problems others actually have, since CS isn't helpful at dealing with the problems people actually have.
Your initial reply that you must have edited or deleted says it all..
I wasn't being disparaging, I was offering troubleshooting help.
I didn't hate on your router, I actually complimented it.
Nor am I a part of "this club" - I joined just the other day.
However, your problem seems like something I have experience in troubleshooting and fixing. You're adamant that your network configuration is ideal for all situations, and that the Tivo equipment is 100% at fault, and I don't think either statement is completely true.
Example: Here at work, we have an enterprise level Cisco wireless network, using all of the current high-end hardware (WiSM2's, 3600/3700 AP's, Mobility Services engines, Prime Infrastrcuture, etc.), and our software & configuration is also deployed according to best practices. It workes great for the 40,000 or so mixed devices that are routinely connected.
Apple doesn't adhere to IEEE standards and best practices for enterprise wi-fi, forcing manufacturers and we as the network group to change our settings and features to accommodate the way they choose to communicate. We tweaked a few settings, enabled a few features that shouldn't be needed, but we got them to work.
My point is, your network equipment may be fine. Your Tivo's may be operating as intended. A few tweaks might be needed to get them all working together happily. Myself and a few other have offers some ideas you could explore..
The thing is, you don't seem interested in that. Rather, it seems like you are just wanting insist that everything be "plug & play", which seems odd from someone so willing to tinker and build their own router, and with your extensive diagnostic and troubleshooting background.
Why so sensitive. I deleted the original reply because it didn't apply. I wrote it right after I wrote a screed to tivomargaret in another thread, expressing frustration with a system that appears to work not as well as I think it should. I deleted the reply after I realized you weren't just another troll ... I seem to bring them out when I ask questions and support them with facts and education. This infuriates some people who reply with angry babble to get even.
I spent two days trying to get it to work before settling on Moca (which works perfectly). I tried numerous things, except Wireshark (no plans there). Nobody here offered any ideas that 1) I hadn't already tried, 2) were realistic or on point with the problem, 3) weren't noise from trolls with poor reading comprehension skills, 4) just plain angry. Then there's the forum speculation that assumed I have unlimited skill, resources, and time to experiment with half formed ideas.
For those who offered ideas I already tried, thanks for trying. For the others ....
My home LAN has a bunch of switches in it and everything works beautifully. Splendidly, in fact. Why shouldn't my LAN have cascaded switches?
FiOS 75/75mbit service (Telllabs 611 ONT) ->
pfSense Router (SuperMicro SYS-5015A-PHF) ->
HP 1810-24g v2 switch
And then cascaded from the 1810-24g switch are numerous other switches, including:
3COM 3CGSU08 8-port gigabit
HP 1405-5G v2 Switch
Each of those smaller switches are at strategic locations around the house - behind TV cabinets, in the basement, home offices, etc. All of which have had a TiVo Mini connected at some point or another, and working completely splendidly.
Some of my TiVo Mini's are also hooked up via MoCA, using a Roamio Plus as an Ethernet <-> MoCA bridge.
In addition, I have a Plex Server running on a Synology NAS, which all of the TiVo's have no issue whatsoever accessing.
If you notice, I have FiOS but do *not* use the Verizon-supplied router. It's unnecessary for TiVo users, and I prefer to use the Roamio as my MoCA bridge. I can do creative things with pfSense that I simply can't do with the Actiontec or Quantum Gateway Verizon supplies... (Primarily, I have a separate guest VLAN hosting Ubiquiti access points for guest WLAN isolation. I use a Raspberry Pi as the UniFi (Ubiquiti) controller...) Cool as s**t setup!