TiVo HD Closed Captions - problems

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by sonysony, Oct 19, 2006.

  1. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    Placement of captions is generally in the hands of the captioner. I haven't noticed any bias in that regard between my TiVo S3 and any other devices.
     
  2. Das Achteck

    Das Achteck Member

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    Yes, that's it. You have done a nice job of cleaning it up, and the captions can be injected back in. Still, it is time consuming and a lossy process, a bit like recoding audio and video. Thanks for the tools.

    What I don't understand is how the TiVo can properly decode the captions in the original stream, but not in the returned stream. Doesn't that indicate that something must be happening in the muxing-demuxing?
     
  3. jmemmott

    jmemmott New Member

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    You are right that the mux/demux process is bringing the problem to the foreground but the cause runs deeper. Broadcast video is sent in the Transport stream (TS) format which has its own defined mechanism for transporting captions. For digital broadcasts, the Tivo simply stores that on disk and reuses it for playback – no problems. When the Tivo sends it to your computer it converts it to a Program stream (PS) format because that matches the analog programming that T2G has always used. Unfortunately on these specific network channels, the video stream already has additional, anomalous, PS formatted captions embedded within it. I would argue that since the source is TS, they should not be present, but since no one will ever look for or use them in the broadcast context, they are harmless. When converted for T2G, however, this results in two copies of the captions being embedded in the PS with the consequence of doubling everything. It would take a lot of work for the Tivo to catch this because the PS captions are carried in the same stream with program category ratings and other data. Selectively screening and removing captioning packets that shouldn’t be there without throwing out other useful information is not something the Tivo is or even should be expected to do.
     
  4. Das Achteck

    Das Achteck Member

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    Thanks for the explanation. A TiVo CSR recently admitted to me that this is a known issue and I did not get the impression that it would ever be addressed. And it would seem that the networks would not be responsive since the issue arises only when someone tampers with their stream while transferring the content to another device.
     
  5. Lori S

    Lori S New Member

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    I wish the HD TIVO would leave the captioning to my TV.
    Instead it takes over.
    If by chance you have set up the TIVO to show you the time in the bottom right corner of the screen, the Captioning only works if you set it AGAIN to "on."
    If you change from live TV to something you have recorded or the other way around, you have to turn it on again, even though your TIVO says it's already on. This is just a bit infuriating.:cool:
     
  6. Das Achteck

    Das Achteck Member

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    Component and HDMI cables cannot pass CC data to your TV. If you want your TV to do the processing you will have to use composite or S-Video cables. In fact I have such a connection on my DVD player for use when I watch a movie with no subtitles, but with CC. Of course the video suffers.
     
  7. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    Yes, digital captions must always be decoded at the tuner or playback device.
     
  8. syounger64

    syounger64 New Member

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    Well that other captioning equipment costs about $ 3,000. Ouch...so that option isnt viable for most of us as I learned from a rep that it's intended for professional use. Oh well. No captioning issues here and I'm even more impressed that I can transfer recordings from my series 2 tivo to my tivo hd AND still get open captions. Along with caption options in tivo settings...I'd have to say that I'm impressed at the very least. :up:
     
  9. sowildpaul

    sowildpaul New Member

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    99% wrong! I use HDMI cable from my Verzion HD DVR (FIOS) to my TV and I turn both analog and digital CC on in that DVR and TV's CC off. It works. It depends on your TV. For example, my TV doesn't show CC via component video cable from my DVD player when there's no subtitles available so like you said, via S-Video cable, it shows CC. My friend's TV is different from mine, via component video from his cable HD DVR to the TV, it shows CC but not via HDMI. He's disappointed cuz he prefers HDMI. Therefore, it depends on your TV. So next time before I buy a new TV, I would read its manual first to make sure that it accepts CC via both component video and HDMI inputs.
     
  10. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    There is no such thing as accepting closed captioning via HDMI inputs. Since digital closed caption decoding is to take place at the tuner or playback device, what it transported through the HDMI cable is open captions (i.e., after the captions are decoded).

    What folks want to do is making sure all their DVRs, DVD players/burners and Blu-Ray players decode closed captions inside the player, instead of relying on the television.
     
  11. sonysony

    sonysony New Member

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    And has been stated in here, shutting off Digital Captions, and just leaving on standard captions has fixed all my problems. I had thought that HD needed digital captions, but I was wrong. If you are having problems, turn off the digital captions in your TiVo.
     
  12. Das Achteck

    Das Achteck Member

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    Mar 8, 2005
    Not quite.

    Google closed captions hdmi
     
  13. sonysony

    sonysony New Member

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    I let TiVo put the closed captions on the recorded video. They work on all 4 of my TiVos, 2 HDMI, 2 component. I don't use the TVs closed captions.
     
  14. sowildpaul

    sowildpaul New Member

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    OK I got it. I thought you meant that we would not be able to see CC via HDMI AT ALL. I just tested it by turning off CC in my Motorola HD DVR and TV's CC on and I don't see CC via HDMI until I turned DVR's CC on. So I understand now that you meant HDMI/component cables cannot carry "invisible" CC data. I am sorry about what I said before.
    I read wikibook.org regarding how to use a Motorola DVR/Setup and found the article;

    Closed Caption: HDMI, Component, etc
    You must use the USER SETTINGS menu on the DVR if you connect with any other cable type, including HDMI and component (YPbPr). You can not use your TV's closed caption features because these other connections can not carry the closed caption signal. Instead, you must tell the DVR to decode closed captions, and then overlay them on the video sent to the TV.

    Another article from HDMI.com;

    How CC works in HDMI and other digital connections:
    The TV remote's CC button does not enable/disable CC on HDMI sources. To enable CC, the user must enable it at the source either through a source remote control key (i.e. CC button) or by going through the setup menu of the source. The source will then combine the video content with the CC information and output that (video + CC) via HDMI to the TV.
    The CC rendering is done at the source and not at the TV as it was with analog connections. For example, with a typical cable box the CC is enable by going to the cable box setup menu and not the TV remote's CC button. The TV remote's CC only controls the analog CC and does not control the CC for each of the HDMI source devices. CC must be enabled from each of the individual HDMI sources.
     
  15. sowildpaul

    sowildpaul New Member

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    That sucks cuz that means we are not able to set font type, size and color on analog captions.

    Is Tivo going to fix the problem with digital captions or what? :mad:
     
  16. sowildpaul

    sowildpaul New Member

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    Yeah, I understand that now. BTW, I didn't know that DVD/Blu-ray players have a built-in CC decoder. My DVD players don't have it. Are you talking about subtitles which are not the same as CC?
     
  17. morac

    morac Cat God TCF Club

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    You should be able to set all these for analog captions since those settings affect the output. They aren't source dependent.
     
  18. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    Very few DVD players have a built-in closed captioning decoders.... that's part of the problem. My Pioneer 810-HS did, but that was remarkable.

    By the same token, as much as we like to think of it otherwise, DVDs are digital storage for what is ostensibly "analog" television (480i). So while it is digital, the "rules" that apply are the rules associated with "analog" television, i.e., closed captions are transmitted across analog connections to your display. If you use the digital connections, then there are no rules and therefore you're not necessarily going to get closed captioning support (unless you have a DVD player like my Pioneer 810-HS). Of course, with DVDs, you can often rely on subtitles instead.

    Once you go up to Blu-Ray, you're exclusively in the land of subtitles anyway, not closed captions.
     
  19. sowildpaul

    sowildpaul New Member

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    Analog captions with those options? That's new to me. I know in the past a few SD commericals rarely showed analog captions with a different text color but it was under their control, not ours.

    I read a viewer's guide (.pdf) for Tivo HD XL DVR but not enough details about CC so it looks like I have to buy the machine to try it out.

    To tell you the truth, yellow text with black background is perfect for me, very readable and much better (smoother) than standard white text that's too bright causing a blur (that makes me think my eyes are bad) so that's why I demand those options.
     
  20. jmemmott

    jmemmott New Member

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    Analog caption can do colors but as you point out, it is rarely actually ever done. As a result, most closed captions end up in the EIA-608 defaults : black and white. As long as you let the Tivo HD do the caption decoding, it lets you set up a new default for font, colors and size. If the captions being broadcast do not actively control the colors, you get your default choice. You have a limited set of choices in each category and there is no transparency control but it is still much better than many television sets allow. Your yellow on black format is one that is available.
     

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