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"So if the store accepts my counterfit $100 bills, that makes it OK also? I suppose it is the cashier's fault for not noticing."

No, because counterfeiting money is against federal law. Printing out a circuit city coupon and asking them to accept it isn't against federal law. I don't see the problem.

Nothing in this post should be construed as legal advice and should not be taken as such. Although I am licensed to give such advice in at least one of the fifty states, I am not acting in that capacity. I am just conversing.

 

It's usually a state felony. Typically called "using a computer to commit a crime."

And I'd bet you $40 you're not going up to the cashier and saying "I printed this coupon off my computer but on the back it says this coupon isn't valid when printed or copied. Will you accept it anyway?"

Justify it all you want so you can sleep at night, but you're committing fraud knowingly passing off an invalid coupon as valid.

I know perfectly well that arguing with people who will use such coupons isn't going to change their minds. They're thieves. Any they're going to continue being thieves. But let's call it what it is: stealing.

 

"It's usually a state felony. Typically called "using a computer to commit a crime.""

I can't speak for most states, but what I can do is suggest that "using a computer to commit a crime" doesn't constitute a crime unless there is also a statute that says using a printed coupon is a crime.

"And I'd bet you $40 you're not going up to the cashier and saying "I printed this coupon off my computer but on the back it says this coupon isn't valid when printed or copied. Will you accept it anyway?""

You wouldn't have to. You just hand it over and say "hey, will you take this?" If they take it, great, if not, oh well.

"Justify it all you want so you can sleep at night, but you're committing fraud knowingly passing off an invalid coupon as valid."

Do we really need to get into the definition of fraud? You aren't misrepresenting anything by handing over a coupon. Honestly, I can say I've never used any sort of printed online coupon, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it.

"I know perfectly well that arguing with people who will use such coupons isn't going to change their minds. They're thieves. Any they're going to continue being thieves. But let's call it what it is: stealing."

Not really. You aren't stealing anything. You're exchanging cash and a coupon for merchandise. The store gets to set its own policies about what it will accept. If the store wants, it can accept expired coupons. If the store wants, it can accept printed coupons (regardless of what the coupon itself says). Hell, if the store wants it can accept bananas or even cigarette butts in lieu of cash.

I suppose you could argue that actually editing the coupon using a computer and attempting to use it could be problematic, but I'm not sure even there. Regardless, I'd feel pretty safe legally using a printed coupon, but I just haven't had the need or desire to.

Nothing in this post constitutes legal advice, and, thus, it should not be taken as such.

 

I called it.

 

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"I called it."

You called what? I've never used such a coupon. I've never really even had the desire to use such a coupon. It appears that you didn't really call anything.

What you did do, however, is preach from a pulpit without a proper factual basis. You sound like a nice guy and all (if nothing else, you're moralistic), but I really don't like when someone imposes a false sense of morality on others using legality as a disguise.

Really this discussion is speculation at best because each state will have its own version of the "fraud" you assert, and I don't know how close those versions would be with common law fraud. However, I would still guess that in any of those states a store still retains private enterprise/contract rights to accept whatever it wants in the form of coupons (unless you decide to go to a socialist/communist regime somewhere). Unless you specifically represent the coupon as something it isn't (and again, walking up to a counter and asking if they accept the coupon is not misrepresentation unless you've altered it), I don't see how that qualifies as a "crime" under the generalized statute you mentioned earlier.

But this debate is merely academic anyway as 1) I am NOT qualified to provide legal advice on this matter in this particular instance and NOTHING I say should be construed as legal advice, and 2) we don't have specific law to draw from unless we know what state we're dealing with.

 

I printed out the coupon then went to CC. I asked an associate if they price matched their website. She said yes. I picked up a Tivo HD, went to the cashier, handed him the coupon and asked him if they will accept it even though it says no reproductions. He tries to scan it but it won't. He calls a manager over, she reads the coupon and then heads towards customer service. I tell her as she walks away I want a price match with their website too. Five minutes later, the cashier comes back and scans in a barcode that the manager generated for him. It knocks off $90 from the in store price of $299. I leave a happy man. God bless the Internet.

PS. I just did all that today because the website lists it at $250 and the coupon is still good.

 

I agree with Nirvanayoda. Stores print coupons with restrictions. They can choose to waive those restrictions or not. I use expired coupons ALL THE TIME at Bed Bath and Beyond--they take them, and always say it's ok. They also let me know they take other merchants' coupons. Similarly, if Circuit City chooses to accept a coupon that is not printed by them, but has the code they'd have to type in, so be it.

The fact is, if the store accepts it, they are accepting it. That is NOT passing off counterfeit bills as negotiable tender. Not only is the printing of fake money a crime in and of itself, but when you give it to someone you are saying that it is legal tender, and negotiable, too. In other words, the store, once it accepts that cash, is expecting to be able to then use that cash for other debts--in other words, it has an expected value, and when you pass it, you are asserting its value. It is not valuable, and therefore you are lying, and the store is stuck holding the bag. A store-issued coupon to its own store has no inherent value and it is not money. It's just an inducement to make a sale and the store can take it or not. They don't turn around and use those coupons in other transactions and expect it to retain its $40 value. It's just a piece of paper with a message written on it. If they want to reject it because it's not the RIGHT KIND of piece of paper, they can. But they can choose to ignore any or all of their own restrictions in the interest of making a sale. Just like at Bed Bath and Beyond, they can choose to ignore their own expiration date (it is their policy to continue to take expired coupons) or not.

Now, don't get me wrong. There IS such a thing as coupon fraud. There are frauds and schemes that aim to bilk people and businesses out of money, either by selling coupons that are fake, or amassing large amounts of coupons and presenting them for payment. There are coupon subscription services that are fraudulent, and lots of other things the FTC is vigilant about. One way to commit coupon fraud in a similar way to the circuit city issue is for a different kind of coupon: the kind that HAS value to the business. These are the sort when the issuer is NOT business that accepts the coupon at the point of sale. In that scenario, the coupon has value because the coupon has to be presented to the issuer for payment. Say, you walk into a grocery store and pass a fake coupon for Cheerios. The supermarket then will submit the coupon to General Mills for payment, and General Mills rejects the coupon because it is invalid. You've now stolen from that grocery store.

Another scenario that would involve a store-issued instrument would be gift card/gift certificate fraud. Those aren't coupons. Those have business value and represent actual cash to the company. Therefore the passing of a fake gift card is an actual theft and its use is fraudulent. But that one is obvious.

 

And the difference is at Bed, Bath & Beyond, they tell you they do that; they will, as a matter of policy, accept outdated coupons and competitors coupons. You don't have to creatively tear out the coupon to hide the expiration date. You don't have to hope the cashier doesn't notice. You can even point it out to them. It's policy, not accident.

At Circuit City, you're not going up to them and asking "will you honor this coupon that doesn't normally apply because I printed a copy on my computer." You're presenting it to them with the full knowledge it's invalid and not informing them of such to allow them to make a decision. That's different than presenting them a coupon that you're unaware is invalid.

Just like passing off a counterfeit $100 bill has very different consequences if you know it's counterfeit versus if you're a victim of accepting a counterfeit bill unknowingly and just trying to reuse it.

Now if you go into a Circuit City store with that printed coupon and fully disclose what it is and they still accept it, good... you're an honest person who is getting a deal that's honestly being offered to you.

 

Well, I think the confusion is that that's EXACTLY what I would do. I mean, I might not point out all the ways in which they would be disinclined to take it, nor do I act as if I'm trying to "get away" with something or be apologetic, because I'm not, but I certainly wouldn't ever try to creatively hide an expiration date or assert something that it is not. I mean, obviously when I've printed it out on my printer, and it comes out in the upper corner of a sheet of 8x11 white copy paper, there ain't a whole lot of question as to where it came from. But I'd just be bringing that as a printed copy of the code they should use to give me a discount I'd very much like to have, not as some kind of "original" mailed coupon.

It's not like I'm at home folding up paper to make it look like a circular or something.

You'd be surprised how willing merchants are to honor discounts or coupons on just about everything. There's no need to be dishonest or be all shifty about it. I almost always ask, at the point of sale, if there's some coupon I'm missing in today's paper or something. Half the time I get an "oh yes!" and the cashier brings up a coupon to scan in. Heck, when I activated my tivo, the CSR and I walked through quite a few codes for the promotion I was looking for. It was my own google search that gave him the one he needed. He was surprised it existed, but there it was. Sure enough, it applied to me, and we were off to the races.

There's nothing noble about paying retail just because the business would very much prefer that everybody pay retail. Sometimes there are mutually beneficial arrangements to be had.

 

Printing from a flier encoded as a .pdf is a "reproduction" which is disallowed on the face of it. Yes, everyone can chose whether or not to be crooked, but the link to SlickDeals accessing the file shouldn't be facilitated by TiVo Community Forums.

Reported to the Moderators with the following message:

"The SlickDeals webpage offers access to a CircuitCity coupon which if knowingly printed and presented to CC would constitute a fraudulent use. TiVo Community members are free, of course, to personally decide such questions, but TiVo Forums shouldn't be a party to aiding or abetting fraud."

 

Is the S3 much better than the HD? Which should I get?

I qualify to transfer my Lifetime service from my S1 to a new HD or to purchase another Lifetime service with an Series3. After selling my S1 + Lifetime (if I bought the S3 + LT) the S3 +LT would cost about $100 more than the HD+LT. what should I do?

 

There's a thread or two around here about the differences and decisions of others who had the same question. Basically the difference is a 50% larger hard drive, the Glo programmable remote, the OLED front panel display, perhaps a nicer looking case, and support for any external SATA drive not just the one brand TiVo approves. The performance is about equal with a slight edge given to the Series 3 with regards to how multi-room video transfers work and with a slightly less latent video path (so keypress-to-visible-effect is a little snappier on the S3).

Everyone has to make up their own mind, of course, but it's a reasonable set of features gained for the extra $100, though you do get to wait 2 or 3 months for the $200 rebate on the S3 so you're out that money in the meantime.

 

Kinda wish I'd known this--one of the nagging issues I have with the THD is the click lag. I just kind of get impatient. I know in time I'll adjust, and hopefully software updates will rectify the lag, but I might have sprung for the s3.

It's a tiny issue in the face of everything gained, of course, but still....
Sometimes I miss my directivos. They were familiar, they were fast, they did their job.

 

Good summary, however the other notable benefit is the option to purchase the Lifetime service with the THD, where that is not an option with the Series3 unit......

 

Unless you're already a TiVo lifetime subscriber.

 

If you (or anybody you know) allready has a TiVo in a TiVo account you can get Lifetime Service on any new HD-TiVo (652 or 648), just have to pay the $399 + sales tax for your state (if any).

 

Making a copy (or counterfeiting ) of a $100 bill is against federal law, and the $100 bill does not even say not good if copied. It makes no sense to compare that to a store coupon, unless there is a state law in some states about coupon copying, its not any more illegal than buying extra newspapers to get more coupons. The store may not accept the copy but that is the problem for the store itself. I print Blockbuster free rent coupons all the time but they control it by having a unique bar code on each one, other co.s send me coupons by E-Mail you can print all you want but they are just for discounts not free stuff. The back of most parking garage tickets say they are not responsible for what happens to your car...come back to your car and find a chunk of concrete fell from the ceiling onto your car and see who is going to pay. In general you can't be held to any passive agreement unless back up by law (copying of most software is an example of a passive agreement that does have the law on its side).

Just my $0.02 on this: