TiVo falls on report Amazon is developing live TV recording device

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by scottfll954, Aug 17, 2018.

  1. kendq

    kendq Member

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    If Tivo were to allow better out of home streaming and more diverse apps, don't you think they would be a much more solid contender. its what makes me regret upgrading.
     
  2. blacknoi

    blacknoi Active Member

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    I just hope whatever happens, that someone, Tivo, Amazon, etc carry on the legacy of trick play, recorded to a local drive.

    That to me would be the biggest thing to lose with the eventual death of the QAM / ATSC and our current generation of tivos.
     
  3. NashGuy

    NashGuy Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, TiVo's app platform is its achilles heel. The problem with apps is that it's a whole ecosystem of hardware plus software developers plus the companies that offer and support services through apps. Difficult to get lots of quality apps built for your hardware when your hardware has relatively few users, and vice versa. And at this point, I really don't think that consumers are clamoring for another TV-connected app platform given that we already have Roku, Fire TV, Apple TV, Android TV, Chromecast, Comcast's X1, Samsung smart TV, LG smart TV, plus video game systems from Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo. And I'm sure the app owners aren't interested in having to develop and provide support for *yet another* app platform.

    TiVo sees this, which is why they're moving toward an IPTV platform for cable and telco TV providers that is based on TiVo as an app running on customized Android TV set-top boxes (which the cable/telco TV company offers) and/or as an app running on Apple TV, Fire TV, iOS and Android retail devices owned by the customer. TDS Telecom has already signed up to deploy this new version of TiVo.

    It'll be interesting to see if whichever company that TiVo has partnered with to manufacture upcoming TiVo hardware decides to embrace this approach for OTA TV by offering an Android TV box running the TiVo app as its "home screen" UI, maybe with built-in OTA tuners and hard drive. Or possibly by offering a Tablo-like TiVo-branded network tuner with attachable storage that would use TiVo's new apps for Apple TV, Fire TV and Android TV as front ends for the system.
     
  4. tarheelblue32

    tarheelblue32 Well-Known Member

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    That's actually not true. If you look through their financial statements you will see that retail customers are still more profitable to them than their cable company customers.
     
  5. jth tv

    jth tv Well-Known Member

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    I would expect most people to wait until ATSC 3.0 arrives before making Multi hundred dollar investments in DVR's, 3.0 is not that far away. One hundred bucks, well I'd try it.

    When ATSC 3.0 initially arrives, I am hoping somebody will produce something cheap like the Mediasonic Homeworx. Very handy when I was experimenting with cutting the cord years ago. It was crude but usable.
     
  6. kendq

    kendq Member

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    I agree but IF Tivo would have been easier to work with in the beginning, they would have had a real advantage in that their platform was integrated with watching from you local cable service (or OTA) . I have a firestick but when I want to watch Netflix it is much easier to go from live TV to the tivo netflix app than to change TV input, load firestick and deal with another (limited) remote. simple is better
     
    UCLABB likes this.
  7. JoeKustra

    JoeKustra in the other Alabama TCF Club

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    Not that anybody notices the thread title, but TiVo has fallen up. Again.
     
  8. ah30k

    ah30k Well-Known Member

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    I'm looking at the Q2 filing right now. Can you please tell me where you are seeing that retail customers are more profitable that cable company customers? You seem pretty confident in your reply saying that I was wrong so you must have some idea where in this filing it says what you say it says.

    http://ir.tivo.com/file/4206196/Index?KeyFile=1500112323
     
  9. NashGuy

    NashGuy Well-Known Member

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    I don't think we have any kind of definitive statement yet as to whether broadcasters will be able to control the recording capabilities of their ATSC 3.0 broadcasts. I think I've read that the ATSC 3.0 mandate says that the FCC will require that each station's main (.1) channel continue to be free (non-subscription) but I don't think there's anything from a legal or technical perspective that would keep those broadcasts from having embedded DRM that could preclude their ability to be recorded on a DVR or, even if recording is allowed, could preclude the ability to FF through ads, or copy the file and redistribute it to other devices, or stream it outside of the home network, etc.

    Look, I'm not saying any of that stuff *will* happen but we should at least consider the possibility. Especially if 3.0 DVRs were to gain popularity, I could see Disney requiring their ABC affiliates to embed that kind of DRM in their network shows because, if you want to watch ABC shows on-demand, they'd much rather you subscribe to Hulu (which they'll soon be the majority owner of) rather than do it for free with an OTA DVR. Same with NBC, which is owned by Comcast, the nation's largest cable TV provider. Same with CBS, which owns the CBS All Access streaming service.

    Part of the problem may have been TiVo not being easy enough to work with, from a developer or business perspective, but I think it's really always been about there just not being enough TiVos in use to justify devoting resources to its app platform.

    I agree that it's way better to have both traditional TV and streaming TV integrated into the same device/input but that desire was never enough to get many consumers to fork over the hundreds of dollars for a TiVo when they could just buy a separate, cheaper streaming device from Roku, Apple, Amazon or Google (with no ongoing service fees apart from the content subscriptions) and use it alongside their cable/sat box (or OTA antenna).

    In the early days of streaming, most of us just saw it as a "side dish" supplement to traditional TV. Now that it's become such an important part of our video diet, we're seeing cable and satellite operators move to integrate it into their own boxes. Comcast's X1 leads the way there, with Netflix, YouTube and now Amazon Prime Video integrated, along with some niche services like Acorn TV. And of course it natively integrates on-demand content for all the premium channels (HBO, Showtime, etc.) Probably just a matter of time before they add apps for Hulu (the original on-demand service) and CBS All Access.
     
    mschnebly and jth tv like this.
  10. jth tv

    jth tv Well-Known Member

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    Seems unlikely. In 1984, per Wiki, the Supreme Court "ruled that the making of individual copies of complete television shows for purposes of time shifting does not constitute copyright infringement, but is fair use."

    Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc. - Wikipedia.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  11. Joe3

    Joe3 Active Member

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    Lack of innovation! Lack of flawless distribution of innovation moves away from what made TiVo unique. Being innovative doesn't come out of a company (Rovi) buying a technology company (TiVo) to cash in on out dated patients. This isn't not leadership it's Bull S##t. Didn't work with the last owner, not working for the new owner. You made my point, 0.0. To save TiVo, Rovi must sell TiVo to a company who doesn't give lip service to tech, but is in fact, not fiction, a forward thinking technology company that is capable "creating" new patients, not a company sitting on their technological assets trying cash in on old patients. I have no problem with people trying to make easy money, but when the plan goes south, get out of your own way and sell.

    Below just another story from Business Insider

    Amazon is reportedly planning to take on TiVo with a device for recording live TV
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  12. ah30k

    ah30k Well-Known Member

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    Wait, I thought you originally said TiVo was forward-facing and unique but here you seem to be saying that old TiVo was bull s$%t. When you say the bs didn't work out for the "last owner" who were you talking about? Maybe I am just not following your vent logic.

    You still also can't seem to come up with any examples of how the new leadership failed so bad other than "lack of innovation" which is unfair given they just released the design that was in the works under the old TiVo and we don't have any insight into their current roadmap. What kind of cadence do you expect TiVo to be releasing significant releases on?

    If you think the old TiVo was flawless in excecution, there are some here who might beg to differ.
     
  13. Joe3

    Joe3 Active Member

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    I going back to the originals, I could be wrong with the TiVo history. I remember a person who originally came up with TiVo, he sold it, and it was sold again to Rovi.
     
  14. ah30k

    ah30k Well-Known Member

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    "Fair Use" is a defense, not a right. Companies don't have to allow you to record. They are free to use DRM and actually the DMCA law now specifically says you can't break DRM.
     
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  15. lafos

    lafos Well-Known Member

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    Best way to fall!
     
  16. Saturn_V

    Saturn_V Now with flavor!

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    And for it to qualify as Fair Use, the purpose and character of the use needs to meet certain requirements- like criticism, news reporting, teaching, and research.
     
  17. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    Actualy there is legal precedent for this. Back when ATSC and HD were first rolling out the broadcasters tried to impose a DRM technology they called "the broadcast flag". It was purposed to be a flag similar to those used by CableCard, but with more options. For example one option would allow you to record a program but it would start to auto delete itself after 3 hours. (Like the live buffer it would delete itself from the start minute by minute)

    The EFF fought it in court and won and the whole idea was trashed. Even with cable it's illegal for cable companies to flag the broadcast stations as anything but "copy freely".

    So my guess is that if they attempt to impose any sort of DRM on their .1 channels the EFF will take them to court again and stop it.

    That does not however prevent them from making their .1 channel SD and applying DRM or a subscription on the UHD version. Not sure if the EFF would fight that or not.
     
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  18. NashGuy

    NashGuy Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Also, at least as long as the broadcaster continues to simulcast their main channel on ATSC 1.0 (whether that's in HD or SD), I'm not sure that the EFF would have *any* legal leg to stand on with regard to the application of any kind of DRM to the free .1 channel in the ATSC 3.0 broadcast. (And keep in mind that we may be a loooooong ways off from a shutdown of 1.0 broadcasts.)

    Also, keep in mind that the networks can (and, IMO, are likely to) eventually shift more and more of their resources into creating higher-quality content for their own direct-to-consumer platforms (e.g. Hulu, Disneyflix, ESPN+, Showtime, CBS All Access, etc.), where the profit margins are better for them, as opposed to pumping lots of money into the old broadcast TV system where ad and subscription dollars are split with MVPDs and local broadcasters.
     
  19. HerronScott

    HerronScott Well-Known Member

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    You were asking about when CableCARD support was going to end which doesn't have anything to do with OTA?

    Scott
     
  20. JoeKustra

    JoeKustra in the other Alabama TCF Club

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    Did you expect this thread to make sense?
     
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