TiVo, a leader in failure?

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by DAccardi, Feb 6, 2009.

  1. Feb 6, 2009 #21 of 104
    CuriousMark

    CuriousMark Forum Denizen

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    The payment they received just about doubled their cash on hand. They are still owed an absolute minimum of $16 million more. Depending on the results of the next hearing that number could grow substantially.
     
  2. Feb 6, 2009 #22 of 104
    atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    It is likely that TiVo didn't (and wont) earn much of anything from hardware. My guess is that TiVo branded hardware is nothing more than a necessary evil for TiVo. They are actually trying to sell/license their software/service/intellectual property. If TiVo could stop making/selling hardware and just sell/license their software/service/intellectual property I am sure they would in a heart beat.

    That's why the final outcome of all the lawsuits with Dish still matter.

    Thanks,
     
  3. Feb 6, 2009 #23 of 104
    SullyND

    SullyND W: 45-3 TCF Club

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    Did TiVo develop LiquidTV? I thought it was developed by Nero. I still think the main point of LiquidTV will be seen in other markets (other than the US).

    As far as Apple buying TiVo - the iPod was not the first MP3 player, and the iPhone not the first smart phone. In both cases Steve has shown the ability to wrangle terms with industry groups to secure advantages for their device.

    If anyone thinks an Apple-owned TiVo (Or merely an AppleTvDvR) couldn't at the very least do something to fix the Cablecard fiasco I think you're mistaken.
     
  4. Feb 6, 2009 #24 of 104
    berkshires

    berkshires New Member

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    Is this Liquid thing shipping yet?
     
  5. Feb 6, 2009 #25 of 104
    gonzotek

    gonzotek tivo_xml developer

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    http://www.nero.com/enu/store-liquidtv.html
     
  6. Feb 6, 2009 #26 of 104
    BigInJapan

    BigInJapan New Member

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    Might have the clout to fix that, but I'd sooner dig my VCR out of the attic than have to integrate my TiVo with iTunes.
     
  7. Feb 6, 2009 #27 of 104
    lofar

    lofar New Member

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    I really don't want an iTivo... Thanks but no thanks.
     
  8. Feb 6, 2009 #28 of 104
    ZeoTiVo

    ZeoTiVo I can't explain

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    it is not what if or imagine that.
    The lawsuit was based around harm being done to TiVo due to DISH being able to put a good DVR out far more quickly than if they had not figured out and copied how TiVo did it. The number of people using DISH would be less and the number using TiVo would be more based on a DVR differentiation that would have existed if DISH did not have as good a DVR from the start. That is a matter of law and how the damages were figured out that went into the money being paid to TiVo.


    PS - I have said repeatedly in this forum that DISH does have a good DVR and indeed if you are looking DBS and want HD then use the DISH one now or else wait and see how the new DirectTV TiVo will be. I told a friend last week who wanted to go HD now but not with cable that DISH was the correct choice at this current time.

    Still at the end of the day - TiVo has a pile of cash and not a pile of debt. That keeps them in fighting mode and not in failure mode. How that pile of cash accumulated seems only secondary at best.
     
  9. Feb 6, 2009 #29 of 104
    DAccardi

    DAccardi Tivo Special Member

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    I was just curious how much they earned as opposed to given, thats all. And the I dont want what ifs was in reference to you and atmuscerellas saying "if" that or this happened.



    Thats all , I just wanted cold hard numbers. Alllllllll good.
     
  10. Feb 6, 2009 #30 of 104
    ZeoTiVo

    ZeoTiVo I can't explain

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    my point is the numbers could look similar since the lawsuit was about subs not obtained by TiVo - the only difference is that the money came in a lump sum versus paid out over time.
    A real business analysis has to take that into account. if you want to ignore it, that is your prerogative but the resulting analysis is flawed, but that is alllll good with me as well. :)
     
  11. Feb 6, 2009 #31 of 104
    elwaylite

    elwaylite Member

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    Look at everyone thats come and gone, and tivo is still here.

    I love people on the forum that like to report Tivo is destined to die any day, while they continue to ink more agreements with third parties like Netflix.

    Just get over it and enjoy the damn box.

    BTW, if you want to know how much they made without a lawsuit, peruse their financials.
     
  12. Feb 6, 2009 #32 of 104
    DAccardi

    DAccardi Tivo Special Member

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    Ok, sorry for ruffling feathers, I again was just curious what they made aside from a lawsuit. I dont know why that question is wrong. Sorry. I didnt ask anything about business analysis or anything else.

    And I never said tivo will fail unless somehow my name changed and I'm the guy in the article... I thought I said I thought they were succeeding. Maybe I should have been more vocal in my support for tivo. Maybe then people will just see the question as it was and still is, a question, in no way, shape or form a "bash" or "flame" or anything even close.
     
  13. Feb 6, 2009 #33 of 104
    ZeoTiVo

    ZeoTiVo I can't explain

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    never did see it as a bash and certainly TiVo is not raking in money hand over fist. They do exist in a tough market.

    I do work with financial business people all day long though and interpret what they work with and need into process and system design requirements. So it is second nature for me to look for the holes in ideas such as yours and then hammer them out. ;)
     
  14. Feb 6, 2009 #34 of 104
    berkshires

    berkshires New Member

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    How much did TiVo make with the lawsuit?
     
  15. Feb 6, 2009 #35 of 104
    fallingwater

    fallingwater New Member

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    Dishnetwork's first HDD product was Dishplayer, a joint project of E* and MS which was seriously handicapped by having two motherboards, one developed by each partner, which didn't communicate well with each other. Dishplayer was originally indroduced as a pause-and-play satellite STB only. After a few months E* offered DVR functionality for an extra monthly fee. Digitally hip DVR users routinely called the Dishplayer a POS. UltimateTV, 'er, was ultimately developed by MS as a solo project for DirecTV based in large part on its half of the DP. UTV didn't suffer from DP's all too frequent hiccups.

    All this took place right around the time that TiVo and ReplayTV introduced their first DVRs, which unlike Dish's utilized A/D converters instead of receiving an all digital satellite signal. I find it hard to relate your account of TiVo's lawsuit as it relates to those times. My take on your synopsis is that it's incomplete and assumes facts not in evidence.

    Echostar's basic DVR philosophy (not necessarily its engineering) is very different than TiVo's, and the results of competition between Dish and DirecTV satellite services based on DVR functionality and style may be informative.

    It's unfortunate for cable viewers (but probably fortunate for TiVo) that E*'s business interests don't allow it to offer a hi-def cable compatible DVR ala TiVo with flat rate Lifetime Service. E*, IMHO, would pulverize Digeo's Moxi if they went head to head!
     
  16. Feb 7, 2009 #36 of 104
    riffjim4069

    riffjim4069 Member

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    Perhaps you should actually try using the Award Winning/Best in Show 622, 722 and future 922 before making such a biased statement. Don't get me wrong, I really like my Tivo HD...but if EchoStar makes a digital cable ready version of the 922 that I can use with FiOS TV, the Tivo HD is getting tossed in the bedroom. The EchoStar VIP series HD DVRs have clearly better hardware and arguably better software. I should know, I still have three 622 HD DVR still sitting in a spare bedroom closet. It's too bad EchoStar is such an unethical company (Tivo, VOOM, etc.) with a such a terrible HD-Lite product.

    Anyway, just a few facts about EchoStar's "nothing more than a DVR" units.

    http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-vid...2-200/4505-6474_7-31778299.html?tag=mncol;lst
    http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-vid...22-hd/4505-6474_7-32638974.html?tag=mncol;lst
    http://www.echostar.com/downloads/pdf/news/press_releases/BestofCESJan09.pdf
     
  17. Feb 7, 2009 #37 of 104
    riffjim4069

    riffjim4069 Member

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    Yes, but EchoStar signed a Tru2Way licensing agreement with CableLabs back in August and stated, "EchoStar enters the cable industry with a strong consumer electronics background in innovative and intuitive products, including state-of-the-art, award-winning set-top boxes and value-added features such as Sling Media’s innovative and award-winning placeshifting technology." Additionally, at CES2009 it was reported, "EchoStar will also leverage the features of the 922 by announcing this spring a tru2way SlingLoaded STB for trials for the cable industry." Source: CNN Money. Things should really "heat up" should EchoStar can get past the Cable Cartel (Motorola, SA, Comcast, Time Warner, etc.).
     
  18. Feb 7, 2009 #38 of 104
    SteveHC1

    SteveHC1 SteveHC

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    The guy is very clearly operating from both false assumptions and lack of any real - or at least obvious information.

    The author gives NO indication, neither in his presentation nor in his conclusions, of any real awareness of the history of Apple and how it has gotten to where it is today. I see a multitude of similarities between Apple and TiVo - in terms of history, corporate practices, product development and distribution. I am convinced that not only would the two be a perfect match for each other, but that Apple should seriously consider acquiring TiVo - but not until AFTER it acquired a thorough, working knowledge not only of the products' engineering and manufacture but also of those aspects of its unique product distribution channels - to which Apple has not had any really direct exposure to.

    I do see TiVo as a persevering fighter, not as a failure. In the not-too-distant past there were plenty of shmucks like this guy who CONSTANTLY tried to portray Apple as a "loser." Time has proven the shmucks to be wrong, just as everyone who really knew a lot about Apple and its products knew they were.

    Unfortunately, TiVo does not seem to have studied Apple's history, does not seem to have made the effort to learn from Apple's mistakes and successes. The enormous parallels and similarities that I see between the two companies appear to exist entirely by sheer coincidence, and this is NOT as it could - or even should - be. If TiVo really wants to succeed beyond most people's beliefs and expectations it should study Apple's path very carefully, and learn particularly from Apple's experiences and conclusions as they relate to relationships with a) consumers, b) third-party developers, and c) other hardware manufacturers. Only then do I believe TiVo will succeed in becoming a true mark of excellence among home-networked multimedia hubs that it seems to be striving for.
     
  19. Feb 7, 2009 #39 of 104
    nrc

    nrc Cracker Soul

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    Then why not just look it up? From their most recent 10Q filing:

    http://investor.tivo.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-08-251359
     
  20. Feb 7, 2009 #40 of 104
    fallingwater

    fallingwater New Member

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    I had hoped that E*'s OTA DTVPal DVR would include the exchangable external HDD feature that E* offers for $40 with the VIP's. If E* offers a future OTA DVR with exchangable external HDD support and discrete dual outputs they'll sell another one. If it's QAM compatible with manual channel mapping, maybe three! ;)

    I'm a Comcast sub. now but used to sub to Dish and still have a Dish 301 receiver and 501 DVR (which would work without a DVR Service Fee)!

    When I state that E* DVRs are little more than DVRs I mostly refer to their lack of internet associated features. From the CNET links:
    The bad:
    annoying interstitial PPV page; defaults to "all episodes" for EPG-initiated recordings; uglier EPG and menu system than TiVo HD and DirecTV; no built-in networking functionality.


    So PPV listings are crammed together too closely? (Pictures are still worth a thousand words.)

    I've never considered TiVo's menus things of beauty and always considered DirecTV's EPG the most unattractive grid styled EPG. Dish's EPG was BIG; relatively easy to read even on a 20" CRT. I haven't seen the latest versions of DTV or E* GUIs.

    Apparently 922 will pursue at least some internet linkability.

    Thing is, I don't have much interest in TiVo's 'more than DVR' features while basic DVR features matter a lot. TiVo is (except for the pretty expensive and as yet unverified for analog, Moxi) the only game in town for a cable DVR with an analog input. And TiVo works good like a DVR should! I'm basically a meat and potatoes, DVR six-packer!

    Way too often ancillary stuff is developed just because it's possible and hopefully will generate revenue. For instance it's much simpler and quicker just to take a DVD to the next room instead of MRVing.

    I'm afraid that when S4 TiVo gets released it will no longer provide an analog input of any kind. If true it'll be time to say goodbye. :(
     

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