The Mentalist - 9-23-11 - Spoilers

Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by Kylep, Sep 23, 2011.

  1. Kylep

    Kylep Doomed! (DOOMED!)

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    Overall I was pretty happy with the episode. A little more context around the not guilty verdict seemed needed, especially since it came so quick, but I guess it was almost a certainty anyway.

    I was disappointing at the "Red John's still alive" thing at the end. I would have respected the show more if that was the end of that story. I realize it's key to the characters motivation, but that scene last year was so excellent I didn't want it to be for nothing... And now Patrick really is just a murderer. I'm totally fine with letting him off the hook for killing Red John himself due to the deep personal motivation, but having it be a mistake really changes his character. (which I'm guessing they'll mostly ignore)
     
  2. john4200

    john4200 Well-Known Member

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    I don't see anything morally wrong with Jane killing a guy who claimed to be Red John and actually made a convincing argument of it, especially given that the guy appears to be guilty of kidnapping and torture of at least one girl.

    I was only disappointed that Jane made that claim about "not RJ" without explaining. I don't think he was lying through most of it, he really did think it was RJ until near the end. So he should have explained what changed his mind. If Whitford's character was not RJ, then obviously someone must have told him about the smell so that he could repeat it to Jane. If only Jane had been smart enough to ask the guy a couple questions instead of allowing him to volunteer information.

    Most of last season I thought that Bertram was either RJ or highly involved in RJ's network. This episode reinforced that suspicion. Bertram's behavior towards Jane and the team was terribly harsh.
     
  3. BrettStah

    BrettStah Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    I disagree that he's a murderer. The guy that he shot had a gun pointed at him, remember (hidden in the newspaper). That sounds like a justified shooting...
     
  4. john4200

    john4200 Well-Known Member

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    The gun was not pointed at Jane at the moment that Jane shot him. The gun was pointed at Jane at the table, but when Jane shot him he was standing and holding the newspaper without pointing the gun at Jane and without putting his finger on the trigger.
     
  5. BrettStah

    BrettStah Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    I don't have the last episode saved from last season, but did Jane know those things for a fact, or could he reasonably assume that the guy who convinced him that he was Red John was still threatening to shoot him? I'm not a lawyer, but to me, if someone points a gun at someone else and it's reasonable for that other person to fear for their safety, they have the green light to disarm, maim, or kill that threatening person.
     
  6. john4200

    john4200 Well-Known Member

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    The guy was walking away from Jane, showing all appearances of leaving. Then Jane called out to him, causing him to turn around. At that point, he has the newspaper with the gun under his arm at elbow height, with both hands at his sides in his pockets, no where near the trigger.
     
  7. secondclaw

    secondclaw Member

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    I realized that the guy Jane shot wasn't RJ the moment I saw the captive girl - this would be totally against RJ's MO. I think Jane realized it at the same time... It really is disappointing though - last season's finalle could have been a stellar end to RJ arc ... and it really does need to end soon.
     
  8. Idearat

    Idearat Active Member

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    I left feeling that while he wasn't Red John he was yet another of Red John's Little Helpers. He did talk on the phone to the other helper before he got shot by Lisbon and Van Pelt. He knew about the shampoo in Jane's wife and daughter's hair. That and the rest of the conversation with Jane made him sound like Red John.

    I'm guessing if he was a helper he also was one with his own personal hobby that he shared with his wife. If I were to make a wild guess, there was something about their other sideline involving chaining girls up in hidden rooms that Jane noticed that made him realize he was just another helper.

    But at the time he shot him, Jane did believe he was Red John, and that was partly due to the dead guy's own comments.

    Now they're back to chasing him again. They might have a small window where Red John thinks everyone believes he's dead, but I doubt he'd be able to resist putting up more bloody smiley faces.
     
  9. Thom

    Thom Unemployed and loving it !

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    While I enjoyed the episode, I was unhappy with the ending. The Not Guilty verdict paired with the "not Red John" statement shows that the previous season finale was a bad idea unless it was to be the series finale. This episode may have been their jump-the-shark episode.
     
  10. Amnesia

    Amnesia The Question

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    I'm surprised that in his closing arguments Jane didn't say something like "Of course it was Red John---do you think it was just a coincidence that the guy I shot was holding a girl in a false room?"
     
  11. verdugan

    verdugan Well-Known Member

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    Add me to the list of those who were disappointed that Red John is still alive. I was looking forward to moving on from that storyline.

    Can you really gamble in jail for such high stakes (in the open) without the guards stopping it?
     
  12. marksman

    marksman ID-10-T

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    I would be happy for red john to be over, but I certainly thought it possible it was more of red john puppetry of other people that made all this happen.
     
  13. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    Which would be a good thing to say for his own self-interest, but as has been said before that might be what convinced him that this is NOT Red John.

    In fact, I suddenly wonder if his girl-abducting sideline isn't what made Red John offer him up to Jane? A way of solving a problem (the risk of exposure) while having some fun with Jane.
     
  14. john4200

    john4200 Well-Known Member

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    I'm still wondering how Bradley Whitford's character (BWC) knew that the place to be was the food court at the mall.

    Very few people knew that ahead of time. Jane, Rigsby, and Cho knew. Lisbon probably was told. Maybe Van Pelt was told, but if she were, she did not appear to tell O'Laughlin about the mall. Jane told Bertram when the meet was happening, but not where. Perhaps Bertram had BWC follow him and Jane to the mall (Bertram made a phone call right after Jane told him about the meet). LaRoche was told about the meeting time just as Jane was leaving the building, so LaRoche could have had Jane followed, but the timing was tight and it is hard to believe LaRoche could get BWC to the mall that quickly. None of the camera angles in the mall scene show the table where BWC was sitting until Lisbon calls him, so we do not know whether BWC arrived before Jane and Bertram, or after.

    At least one security guard at the mall knew, but he was probably not told about it until an hour or two before the meet, and it would be an absurd coincidence for a random security guard at the mall to be a RJ associate.

    The woman who went to the hotel with the rope went into Bertram's room, which was right above O'Laughlin's room. That would be consistent with both Bertram and O'Laughlin being RJ associates -- she could check Bertram's room and then use the rope to check O'Laughlin's room.

    Who took BWC's gun and switched the phone? Waitress, security guard, or forensics guy? If it was the waitress or security guard, then the RJ associate must be someone who knew about the meet ahead of time (i.e., probably not Bertram). I suppose RJ could have been in the mall, watching, and quickly bribed the security guard to do it. If it was the forensics guy, then he could be RJ, or just an associate. I could not tell if the forensics guy was Brett Partridge, the suspicious forensics guy from the first episode.

    So, I think one of the following must be RJ or an associate of RJ (in decreasing order of likelihood):

    Bertram
    ....
    Van Pelt
    LaRoche
    Rigsby
    Cho
    Lisbon
    ....
    Jane

    Bertram is way ahead of all the other suspects. The woman went to "his" room. He made a phone call after hearing about the meet, and was at the mall. He quoted William Blake for no apparent reason ("Red Queen" episode). And he seemed more hostile than usual to Jane and the team in this episode. He is powerful and has a lot of connections.

    I initially had Van Pelt at the bottom, since it is not clear that she knew the mall location ahead of time. But then I started thinking about her history of boyfriends, and it is just too suspicious that she has had two mole boyfriends by pure chance. Her reaction to the O'Laughlin reveal seemed a little strange to me. And she has red hair. So I think she has to be near the top of the list for a RJ associate (but probably not RJ, since she is too young).

    Lisbon seemed genuinely surprised when Jane told her about O'Laughlin, and she did get shot, so I think she is near the bottom of the list. Jane is at the bottom, since I REALLY don't want to hear that Jane is totally insane and is his own worst enemy. But I included him on the list for completeness.
     
  15. GoodSpike

    GoodSpike Active Member

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    Remember, not every show is about Red John, although last season it seemed he touched just about every show somehow.

    Maybe Red John will become like Q in Next Generation.
     
  16. secondclaw

    secondclaw Member

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    While I agree that Bertram is likely one of the top RJ helpers, nobody on that list appears to be capable of evading Jane for so long to be real Red John - who must be a skilled hypnotist / mentalist himself.

    And I seriously doubt Van Pelt has anything to do with RJ. She is frequently targeted because she's too gullible. And her red hair is likely a red herring.
     
  17. john4200

    john4200 Well-Known Member

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    As I said, that is a list of RJ or RJ associate suspects. If Van Pelt is guilty, she would be an associate, since she is too young to be RJ. Maybe RJ favors people with red hair.

    As for evading Jane, I'm sure RJ and some of his associates can be quite convincing "playing dumb". If Bertram is guilty, I'll bet he is a lot smarter than he pretends to be. Same for Rigsby or Cho (although they would be associates, too young for RJ).
     
  18. ClutchBrake

    ClutchBrake Pass the gravy!

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    Ditto this. I was pretty crushed when that happened. It would have been a brilliant end to the arc. But nooooooo. :(
     
  19. Amnesia

    Amnesia The Question

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    Who do you think you are? Darth Vader?
     
  20. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    Don't you knoooooow the difference between nooooooo and NOOOOOOO?
     

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