The Defenders (spoilers ok)

Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by cheesesteak, Aug 19, 2017.

  1. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    Heh. Too bad the timeline of the cinematic universe doesn't allow for it, but it would be fun to have a flashback to the 15 minutes when the comic book version was a member of the Avengers... :D (They did a little nod to that when Patsy was trying to design a costume for her.)

    Both in the comics and the TV show, she's not superhero material. She's just a private investigator who happens to have superpowers.
     
  2. TAsunder

    TAsunder Debates Ghee vs Gi

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    This was kind of a hot mess. Noticeably better than Iron Fist but not as good as any of the other shows/seasons. I really hate what they are doing with the excessive humanization of The Hand in Iron Fist and here. They worked better as swarming ninjas. Whatever happened to their ninja outfits and ability to easily best Daredevil with henchmen who aren't even one of the heads of a daimyo?

    Early fight scenes and character scenes were great, later ones a big let down. Corridors apparently lead to better scenes than dark soundstages made to look like caves. But we knew that already I guess. I wonder if they ran behind schedule in filming? Also perhaps left a placeholder song for the most critical battle of the show - strange song choice there.

    Even with smaller power discrepancies here, the discrepancy is still a distraction just like in The Avengers. They did a much much better job with Cage and Jessica Jones in their shows. Elektra seemed to be as powerful as the plot required.

    Why can normal people break their fist on Cage's jaw and Iron Fist can only move him when he lights up but every random member of the Hand seems capable of knocking Cage around?

    That said, I liked seeing the characters together. They had decent chemistry. The minor characters could have had more to do. And the big bad plot was underwhelming.

    Part of my recurring annoyance with MCU is that the TV shows often have events way more dangerous and cataclysmic than the movies, and yet the omega level heroes (or even just Iron Man) don't bother to intercede. This whole plot would be 5 minutes of Thor doing light cardio to end it, and the city of New York was at stake.
     
  3. heySkippy

    heySkippy oldweakandpathetic

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    Did we see a definitive end to Madame Gao?
     
  4. TAsunder

    TAsunder Debates Ghee vs Gi

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    No.
     
  5. cmontyburns

    cmontyburns Excellent.

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    I've still got a couple of episodes to go, so I haven't read the thread. But I wanted to blindly post a complaint I've had and then revisit it at the end.

    Thus far (through episode six), and this isn't a surprise to me, Jessica is the best character in the show. But it has really been bugging me how wishy-washy the series is about her powers. Heck, even Jessica's own show didn't play them up all that often. But at least there they semi-regularly had her displaying her strength, I think at least one time she leapt up to a high balcony, and so forth. Here? Unless they need a Dumpster tipped over or some furniture moved, she's basically a regular person.

    It bothered me at first that she has been such an ineffective fighter. But I came to accept that: first, unlike the others, she is not a trained fighter (well, perhaps Luke isn't, either, but being basically invulnerable he can at least be a brawler); and second, also unlike the rest, she tends to run away from the powers she has. So OK. But they do have her throwing punches and hitting people occasionally, and when she does, they... fall down. Shouldn't they go flying? Shouldn't that be like getting hit with, I dunno, at least a brick? I get that her main function in this version of The Defenders seems to be as the dot-connecting PI, but hell, that could be Foggy. She's got powers! Why do they make it seem like she doesn't?
     
  6. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    That's very much how she is in the comics. She's not very good at the powered stuff, and shies away from it when she can. She'd rather do the stuff she's good at, which is the detective stuff.

    (You should see her fly! It can be...amusing. She hasn't quite worked out the whole landing bit.)
     
  7. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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  8. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    I noticed the color shifts. I had also noticed during the Jessica Jones and Luke Cage series. It wasn't as obvious to me in Dare Devil or Iron Fist.
     
  9. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    They show her real power in the last episode when she holds up the elevator, containing Luke and Danny, with one hand.
     
  10. Fixer

    Fixer Fixin' it!!

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    "Jesus, am I the only one left who doesn't know karate?" :D
     
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  11. Drewster

    Drewster Connoisseur

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    I liked it a lot. The show doesn't make up for the awfulness of Iron Fist, but I liked the payoff to DD S2's muddled ninja diversions. The best moments are when the secondary characters have conversations with each other; their job is to emote as humans, so their reactions seem more, well, human. The scenes of Luke and Danny getting to know each other were delightfully awkward.

    Really looking forward to a Heroes for Hire or Daughters of the Dragon series. They've also laid a lot of seeds for "Born Again"! [giddy]

    A question -- in Luke's last scenes his t-shirt had a stylized "Force" logo on the left sleeve. Is that comics title?
     
  12. Drewster

    Drewster Connoisseur

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    Also, it strikes me that the drama of Matt's journey with Elektra (and fandom of her) has never resonated with me. It didn't here either.
     
  13. Maui

    Maui Well-Known Member

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    I really enjoyed the show but that is not a surprise as I enjoyed all of the other shows, yes even Iron Fist.

    If pressed I would say I liked Luke Cage best because it avoided all the mystical Hand stuff. Mostly he was just up against run of the mill bad guys. And while Jessica Jones also did not deal with the hand I never really had any love for the mind control bad guy.

    It was nice to see so many supporting cast members make appearances even though they were mainly used as potential leverage.

    Interesting tidbit that I looked up this morning. I assumed Gao was the oldest regular (or semi regular) cast member but apparently Scott Glenn has a few years on that actress. BTW, Scott Glenn is still awesome.
     
  14. cmontyburns

    cmontyburns Excellent.

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    (I've now finished the series so can come back and read the thread.)

    Yep -- I was through episode six when I posted about her, but the final two brought her a bit more to parity. She was tossing people around with abandon in the last two fight scenes, she gave Gao what-for, and then there was that elevator bit, which I loved (and which I'm really glad they gave to her and not Luke).
     
  15. cmontyburns

    cmontyburns Excellent.

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    Fly! I didn't know that was in her arsenal.

    Yep -- as mentioned, I've no issue with her not being skilled in the show, nor not being interested in being skilled. My gripe was more that when she hit somebody, the result was like Krysten Ritter hitting somebody and not a superhuman doing it. But then, as been observed, the series really was not very consistent with anybody's strength (including the bad guys) relative to anyone else.
     
  16. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    Well, in the comics she can kind of fly. She can throw herself into the air, lurch around, and then come crashing down. But she's so terrible at it, she almost never does it.
     
  17. cmontyburns

    cmontyburns Excellent.

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    Various other thoughts now that I've finished:

    • I mostly enjoyed the season overall. However, this is due as much to my fondness for team-ups as it is for this being a well-executed example of one, because it wasn't always. Lots of rough edges here.
    • Even at eight episodes, the plot felt stretched pretty thin. Did we really need 2-3 scenes per episode of Alexandra sitting pensively? Or her telling Elektra (again and again) what her destiny was? I eventually started scrolling past any scene of Alexandra by herself -- we get it, already.
    • The show did nothing to make me regret not watching Iron Fist. The character is a weenie and the actor can't sell what the character is actually supposed to be. And yes, he must be the dumbest Iron Fist yet! He gets taken down into the pit, told explicitly that they need him to punch the door to complete their evil plan, so what does he do? Gets into a fight with Elektra and punches the stupid door with his iron fist! What an idiot.
    • I kind of thought Sigourney Weaver was wasted. I suppose they put her there partly so we could be shocked when she was killed, but she never had much to do otherwise. At first I thought her death was a stupid twist for twist's sake, but I guess I can rationalize it. Elektra had become individuated and wanted to live forever too, but there was no guarantee she'd be rewarded that way if Alexandra viewed her mainly as a tool. So she had to kill Alexandra to gain parity with the rest of the members of the Hand.
    • That said, the internal politics of the Hand made no sense. Even after Elektra brought Danny in like they wanted, the others wanted to dispose of Alexandra for coming up with a plan that actually worked. And then Elektra did it for them, announced that she was in charge, and then when right back to executing the plan they all had from the beginning anyway. It was all a big distraction from the fact that there was no there there.
    • I hoped for better from the fight scenes. We know from Daredevil that these showrunners know how to do it. And some of it was fun. But almost all the scenes were in the dark and heavily edited and generally hard to make out who was doing what.
    • As I said upthread, I thought Jessica was the best character here and I really enjoy Krysten Ritter in the role. They perhaps lean into her solipsism and sardonic manner a bit too much, but I quite liked her presence in this group. "The scarf looked better." Ha!
    • I admit to being surprised that they blew up the building. I ended the penultimate episode thinking this was a stupid plan and they'd never go through with it, not least because the show wouldn't be able to depict an actual building coming down. But they did! It's still a plan that makes no sense; it seems clear that the Hand isn't much of an organization without the five fingers, and those people could clearly die. So taking them out another way probably would have been good enough, especially because it was made known early that basically nobody else knew what was under the building. But oh well. I kind of liked Madame Gao.
    • Back to Jessica: loved the scene in the Chinese restaurant when the other three were about to square off with Elektra, and Jessica sent the car through the window and strode on in: "Who missed me?" Great moment for the character.
    • I appreciated that the season made time for the supporting characters from the individual shows and gave them all a few moments. That was nice.
    • Complaints aside, I got a mild shiver or two on the occasions near the end when the three or four of them were committed to a fight together. I don't think this season was as good as it could be, but -- even if they have to keep Iron Fist around to mock ("come on, Iron Clad!") -- this is a good core and I look forward to seeing them together again.
     
  18. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    If they were consistent with power then Luke would be able to steamroll everyone. In the first scene where he fights Danny he doesn't even flinch when hit (except with the fist) but later he gets knocked around by regular henchmen.
     
  19. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    He was an even bigger wennie in this show then he was in his own. Also in his own show he learned a move that allowed him to recharge his chi so he could use the fist whenever he wanted, and that he could heal people using the fist too. But neither were mentioned in this one and he was basically reverted to the know nothing guy he was in the first episode of his show.

    My other problem with him is that he doesn't seem to be that good of a fighter. DareDevil does better then he does and he's suposedly the best fighter in Kung Lang (sp) to have been rewarded the iron fist. Not buying that.
     
  20. Stormspace

    Stormspace Electrocuted by TiVo

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    Best line:
    Jessica says, "I'm not a black belt, so tell me when this hurts." as she slowly pushes a guys head through a windshield.

    I liked it and I too thought there were multiple problems with Jessica's abilities:

    First of all, she is not trained as the cool line above states, yet she is able to walk up to these trained guys carrying swords, not get cut, and throw them around. Several times she simply grabbed their arms and tossed them aside. Since she's not invulnerable and not quick I sort of came out of the experience a little during those scenes. Second, Madam Gao calls her something which I can't recall when she is describing the three allies of Iron Fist. "Unstoppable" maybe. I can't remember, but it seemed a cop out description that was totally out of character. "Unrelenting woman", still can't remember.
    Lastly, having her fly, if only across the room and crash into someone would have been cool and differentiated her from the others. She just seemed to be in the way in most of the fights.

    I liked that she seemed to be the one that was thinking on her feet and not afraid to use anything at hand, like a car, to accomplish her goal. Jessica is probably my favorite of the four and she was done a major disservice in the shows.

    As others mentioned, it seemed to me that Chi users were able to push Luke around instead of rebounding off him and I'm a little surprised he didn't just walk through some of those sword attacks. I've have expected them to shatter as they hit him. He should have been able to ignore everyone but one of the fingers of the hand.

    Daredevil seemed to be the focus of any fight with Electra in spite of him being just a normal guy. He was portrayed much better even than Luke against the hand. Maybe that's because DD is a higher tier character, I don't know.

    Iron Fist with no fist and getting tricked so easily into opening up the wall. Anyone with half a brain saw that coming. He should have as well. He doesn't seem as disciplined as he should be to have become an iron fist.

    I enjoyed the whole season and am looking forward to more about the defenders, but I hope it'll be a different set of villains next time and that Danny won't be so lame.
     

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