SWAP CABLE TV for ANTENNA TV - KEEPING ISP

Discussion in 'TiVo Help Center' started by Richard Paracka, Feb 1, 2019.

  1. Feb 1, 2019 #1 of 34
    Richard Paracka

    Richard Paracka New Member

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    I intend to terminate my cable TV service ($200/month for basic cable), but keep my internet ISP. I want to swap antenna TV signal for cable TV service while keeping internet - and do the whole thing on my existing MoCA network.

    At this time I have a Verizon FIOS enabled MoCa network installed in my home. I use a Roamio TiVo with MoCA adapter for distributed DVR service. How do I make the switch from cable TV to antenna TV on my MoCA network?

    NETWORKS - as I understand them
    An ethernet network must run a dedicated line to a router port for each node/device.
    A MoCA network is different in that it's a loop. Nodes/devices can be attached at any point in the loop, which is maintained by the MoCA bridge....located somewhere in the loop.

    CAVEAT
    I have installed an antenna on my roof, which is getting a nice signal. It's not connected to my network yet because I don't know how to do it.

    It's my understanding that an antenna signal cannot coexist with a cable TV signal on a MoCA network. Fine. I can't dance and chew gum at the same time either. I'm cutting off my cable TV service anyway, but I want to KEEP my internet service.

    BIG QUESTION
    How do I merge antenna service with ISP service on my home MoCA network? Do I need an additional MoCA adapter for my antenna?

    Seems to me I have to identify the cable TV source, divide TV from ISP at that point, and then merge the ISP services with my antenna for distribution within my home network. Is that right and if so how do I do that? TiVo customer service tells me to switch cable rf line with antenna rf line at the point where it attaches to the Roamio DVR - cable/ant IN. What happens to the MoCA network with ISP service if I do that?

    Help!
     
  2. Feb 1, 2019 #2 of 34
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    MoCA's not relevant to the OTA and cable TV/Internet signal conflict. OTA and cable TV/Internet use overlapping frequencies, and so can't coexist on a coax segment. MoCA resides above the OTA/CATV frequencies and can coexist with either.

    OTA: 40-806 MHz
    cable (TV/Internet): 5-1002 MHz
    MoCA (D band): 1125-1675 MHz​


    Questions:
    1. Were you looking to deliver the raw OTA antenna signal to multiple locations, or just to the TiVo DVR?

    2. Will the antenna coax run pass through whatever central junction you currently have for your FiOS setup, or did you plan on running it directly to the DVR location?

    3. Is your FiOS router/gateway WAN connection via coax (MoCA WAN) or Cat6 (Ethernet WAN)? (The status LEDs on the front of your FiOS gateway should indicate which is in-use.)

    4. What is your spec'd Internet download/upload speed from FiOS, and what model is your FiOS router/gateway?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019
  3. Feb 1, 2019 #3 of 34
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Someone like @fcfc2 is experienced in FiOS, so hopefully they'll step-in, but FiOS, I believe, is a different case from traditional cable providers.

    With modern digital cable companies, the TV and Internet signals can be at any frequency within the allotted spectrum, and can change over time, and so can't be simply filtered ... and are always broadcast/present on the coax, even if not subscribed to one service or the other. So there could not be any merging of the OTA antenna signal with the ISP's cable WAN signal.

    But a FiOS ONT, I believe, will only broadcast the signals associated with the subscribed service(s). So if you aren't subscribed to FiOS for TV, you won't have any FiOS TV signals present on the coax. Additionally, the FiOS MoCA WAN connection is at a specific frequency (within MoCA Band C, channel C4, at 975-1025 MHz), compatible with both OTA and MoCA Band D.

    Of course, the best case scenario is that you report the answer to Question #3 above as "Ethernet WAN," which would mean that the coax from the FiOS ONT could be disconnected.
     
  4. Feb 1, 2019 #4 of 34
    mdavej

    mdavej Well-Known Member

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    Also keep in mind that only a Roamio basic or OTA (not Plus or Pro) can receive OTA. So I hope that's the kind of Roamio you have.

    In a nutshell, you just need to physically isolate any coax used by your FIOS internet from the rest of your Antenna/Moca coax network. Do not merge them! If they're already isolated, then all you have to do is connect an antenna (and POE filter) to your Moca network.

    My entire house is wired for coax, some of which passes through my attic, which is where I tapped into it and connected my antenna. All that remained was I had to make sure the coax from my ISP to my modem was only connected to the modem and no other coax in my system.

    If your heart isn't set on Tivo, a Moca-less Amazon Recast system would be much simpler as you wouldn't have to run much coax from the attic at all. Just put the Recast near the antenna, and everything else connects to it wirelessly. But you'll have to evaluate whether Recast is an acceptable substitute for Tivo. Recast is like a Honda Civic compared to the Tivo Cadillac.
     
  5. Feb 1, 2019 #5 of 34
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    But do you have cable or FiOS? Past threads indicate FiOS is different than traditional cable, so "need" may not be the case.

    Example: How Do We Connect an OTA antenna and keep FIOS Internet
     
  6. Feb 1, 2019 #6 of 34
    unclehonkey

    unclehonkey Well-Known Member

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    The Valley...
    technically OTA is from 54MHZ (if you have a RF2 in the market...most dont) to 692Mhz (Ch 51) but dropping to 608Mhz (RF36)
     
  7. Feb 1, 2019 #7 of 34
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Is the following no longer the case, anywhere?
    • Channels 52 through 69 in the United States have been reallocated now that conversion to digital TV was completed on June 12, 2009, although some low-power and translator stations may still be in use on these channels.

    edit: p.s. Heh, I'd corrected the low-end of the OTA range more recently, but hadn't back-tracked to correct any past entries. Thanks again for the heads-up.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  8. Feb 2, 2019 #8 of 34
    unclehonkey

    unclehonkey Well-Known Member

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    The Valley...
    nope. All translators moved down below 51 at the DTV transition and now alot of them have already moved down to 36 and below. Here in Minnesota we have a fair amount of translators. I now in Canada there are still stations above 51 (Fort St James, BC has a OTA cable system that has stations up to 68) but they are starting to migrate down to 36 and below.
     
  9. Feb 2, 2019 #9 of 34
    Richard Paracka

    Richard Paracka New Member

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    Here's a rough idea of how my final wiring might look. Please have a look and let me know if I'm working in the right direction. The router/Bridge is a Verizon combination LAN & WAN bridge (there are two in the box) for cable TV & internet services. The attached diagram assumes TV service is terminated, but ISP service from Frontier Communications continues.

    I already have a good TiVo DVR as well as TiVo mini units in the bedroom and study/office. They've been working very well for us for over ten years.

    What's the difference between a MoCA bridge and a MoCA adapter? I had to attach a MoCA adapter for my TiVo Roamio because it wasn't MoCA ready. The Roamio unit is able to tune either cable (with a cable card) or antenna TV.

    Thanks for your help...

    MoCA network.jpeg
     
  10. V7Goose

    V7Goose OTA ONLY and Loving It!

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    I cannot follow your diagram, but the solution is potentially very simple for you. If you only have one TiVo DVR, and it uses an external MoCA adapter, then you can probably just leave all the coax and MoCA just exactly like it is (except disconnect any coax from the Roamio antenna jack), and connect your antenna coax directly to the Roamio input (and not any other coax in the house).

    Of course, that solution will not work if you want your antenna OTA signal to be available on coax outlets in different rooms of the house instead of just on the TiVo Roamio.
     
  11. fcfc2

    fcfc2 Well-Known Member

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    Fios is different than standard CATV service, in that, if you have no TV service from them then you don't have to worry about isolating your OTA signals from their CATV signals...because your OTA will die at the ONT just like the MoCA LAN frequencies. What you do need to be concerned about is that your MoCA LAN frequencies do not go back up the antenna feed and out of your home as interference. To eliminate these issues a MoCA filter on the antenna coax will block that.
    You also need to get the antenna signals to the input of your Roamio, this does not have to be isolated from the common coax network so long as you have the antenna coax blocked with a MoCA filter, in other words, if you cannot get a run from the antenna directly to the Roamio you can connect the antenna coax wherever you can get it to the common home coax network and that is where to add your MoCA filter on the antenna coax. This may not be the ideal location for OTA reception though and may create reception problems, a direct antenna to Roamio input is best for reception and even though you are getting a good OTA signal now there are sometimes issues with the Tivo DVR's which may require an antenna amp/preamp or a better antenna to resolve. Your current MoCA network should continue to function normally.
    Some trial and error is likely necessary.
    EDIT: Tried to puzzle your diagram....leave what you have now except for the antenna run and the MoCA filter.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  12. Richard Paracka

    Richard Paracka New Member

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    I'm confused by differing opinions here. Let me being again...
    First, I've installed a MoCA filter on my antenna down lead - before any splitter. I'm aware of the necessity of this portion of the install.
    Second, it's my intention to use my existing RF wiring to distribute TiVo Roamio DVR services throughout my house - to TiVo mini units.

    My current Verizon FIOS router/bridge creates the current MoCA network with CATV and ISP signals combined on RF cable. It works.
    I intend to terminate CATV and keep ISP service on the same incoming RF line, but want to substitute antenna signal in my home MoCA network instead.

    Do I need to install a separate MoCA bridge for the antenna signal or just run it through a MoCA adapter? Somehow I need to inject the antenna signal onto my MoCA network - not just plug it into the Roamio and lose all my investment in wiring and service in other rooms (which is what TiVo Support advises).

    What's the difference between a MoCA bridge and a MoCA adapter if any?

    Can I continue to rely upon my Verizon FIOS router/bridge to support my existing MoCA network and only add antenna signal via another MoCA adapter?

    Because of conflicting answers it seems good to me to just buy a second MoCA bridge and join my ISP & antenna via that device (see my diagram in an earlier post).

    Pardon me while I get an aspirin.....it shouldn't be this difficult should it?

    thanks for your help.....TiVo doesn't seem to want to take time to advise and I need help from someone.... the man who installed my antenna (and who crawled around in my attic for hours) did a fine job, but says I can't combine CATV and antenna - while others say FIOS is different.

    I'd prefer to just join antenna via MoCA adapter to the existing network. Seems simpler to me. I can't justify $200/month for basic cable. This is nuts.

    thanks
     
  13. V7Goose

    V7Goose OTA ONLY and Loving It!

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    New Mexico...
    I cannot tell you if FiOS is "different" here or not, but I do want to clear up a couple of things for you.

    You do NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT want a second MoCA bridge. The bridge is what makes the connection between your wired Ethernet LAN and your coax plant so that normal Ethernet network traffic can share your coax with TV signals. You must only have ONE active bridge on your network.

    You continue to use terms like "RF wiring". I suggest you stop that, since it is not a term that is commonly used in MoCA or Ethernet discussions. I suspect by this you are referring to the coax in your house. If that is correct, then call it coax.

    MoCA only applies to the NETWORK traffic on your coax wires, it has absolutely nothing to do with your OTA antenna TV signal, so you never need any MoCA adapter to connect TV signal to a coax wire.

    Here is a short simplistic explanation of how your devices talk together:
    Without
    MoCA, your TV signal goes into the Roamio tuner and you watch it. If you want to watch that program on a Mini, the Roamio formats the media into normal Ethernet traffic and it is sent over your wired Ethernet LAN to the Mini just like a computer would do. If you do not have access to wired Ethernet at both boxes, then you can use MoCA to send the SAME ETHERNET SIGNAL over your coax between the Roamio and the Mini. Although the Mini has a built-in MoCA adapter, it is still just receiving an Ethernet signal.

    A MoCA adapter is nothing more than a device that connects an Ethernet wire to a coax cable. You cannot see this on a Mini or 6-tuner Roamio because the adapter is inside the box, but if you have a 4-tuner Roamio, you can clearly see that it is connected to your adapter with the normal Ethernet cable (or possibly your Roamio is just connected directly to your wired Ethernet LAN and the "adapter" function happens at the remote Bridge). In effect, a MoCA adapter is EXACTLY like an Ethernet Powerline adapter - it is just a way to send an Ethernet signal over different kinds of wires.

    Finally, this statement does not make much sense to me:
    "Somehow I need to inject the antenna signal onto my MoCA network - not just plug it into the Roamio and lose all my investment in wiring and service in other rooms."
    Why, what "investment" are you trying to preserve? If you only need to connect to Minis, then you have no need to do that. A TiVo Mini does not receive a TV OTA signal in any way; it ONLY receives Ethernet traffic over your LAN.

    On the other hand, if you want to connect your antenna to other devices IN ADDITION TO your Roamio, such as a TV in the guest room, then you would simply use a splitter to connect the antenna to the existing coax and your Roamio. But HERE is where you do need to know if there would be a problem with your FIOS system. I would suggest you first get the Roamio working as I have described, with it being the only connection to the antenna. THEN, just add the splitter to connect the antenna to your coax plant and see what works and what does not.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  14. fcfc2

    fcfc2 Well-Known Member

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    Hello Richard,
    First, make sure your Fios TV service has been stopped. If that is the case then you do not have to worry about mixing OTA and CATV signals because you don't have any CATV signals on the coax from the ONT. The advice you were given by the antenna guy only applies if you have active Fios CATV service. This is "different" from standard CATV systems which would allow your OTA frequencies to travel back up their coax and possibly interfere with the CATV company or your neighbors signals.
    However, the OTA reception issue, would still benefit from a direct run to the Roamio you just remove the output from the MoCA adapter and connect directly from the antenna output. It is only when you mix the OTA and MoCA signals on the same coax lines that you need to use a MoCA filter on the antenna, a direct run to the Roamio from the antenna eliminates the need for the MoCA filter.
    You have one MoCA adapter feeding the Ethernet port on your Roamio and so long as you have a coax connected to your Fios router that is all you need or want.
    You can check if your Fios TV is still active by simply checking your tv. If it is off, remove the cable card and return later with any boxes.
    One important bit of info which is missing is how you are getting internet from the ONT via Ethernet or coax????
    This would help a lot in telling you how to proceed. Is there an Ethernet connection to the router's WAN port or just coax or both?
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  15. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    No. But it would help if you could provide answers to the questions in post #2 of the thread.

    Though I’d add, as the diagram doesn’t make it clear ...

    5. Is the Roamio DVR in the same room as the FiOS router and/or can it be connected via Ethernet to the router?
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  16. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Did you review this past thread involving a similar setup?


    ... because it provides a solid example of how FiOS is actually different, making some of the comments above something other than just opinion — relevant if you have a FiOS FTTH install. (e,g. Your diagram depicts a cable install, rather than a fiber install. Where’s the FiOS ONT [Optical Network Terminal]?)
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  17. Richard Paracka

    Richard Paracka New Member

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    My FIOS ONT is located on the outside wall of my garage. COAX comes off it and enters the building attic at that point. My router/bridge is located at the opposite end of the building where the TiVo DVR & large TV is located.
     
  18. Richard Paracka

    Richard Paracka New Member

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    #1 raw OTA to TiVo DVR and from there to multiple locations via MoCA.
    #2 antenna COAX will run directly to TiVo DVR. [It has temporarily been run to ANT input on my TV and is a good signal.]
    #3 FIOS router status lights indicate COAX connection.
    #4 Verizon Actiontec model MI424WR-GEN3I I am paying for 50/50, but several speed tests indicate 57 down and 55 up.
     
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  19. mdavej

    mdavej Well-Known Member

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    Like I said, keep your FIOS coax physically isolated from the rest of your coax and you’ll be fine.
     
  20. Richard Paracka

    Richard Paracka New Member

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    The Roamio DVR is on the same wall in the same room as my FIOS router.
    Incoming COAX line is split. One side goes to Router and the other side goes to a MoCA adapter next to my TiVo Roamio. Outputs from the MoCA adapter connect to Roamio COAX and ethernet inputs. The DVR supplies signal to two TiVo mini units in other rooms in the house. Those mini units are connected via COAX. The whole thing has been working very well for ten years.

    As an aside, I had a professional installer put up my antenna. We have a solar panel array on our roof that provides power to the house. I am informed that light reflection from solar panels as well as light reflection from the ocean can adversely affect antenna signal. The antenna pole was installed on the opposite side of the house from the solar array (50 ft). COAX from the antenna enters our garage at the same location as cable services.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
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