Suggestion for Tivo - MRV receiver box?

Discussion in 'TiVo Premiere DVRs' started by Hichhiker, Apr 13, 2010.

  1. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

    23,637
    1,299
    Jan 31, 2002
    Northern...

    Advertisements

    But remember that you can't transfer any content with the Moxi to a PC like you can with the TiVo.
     
  2. Hichhiker

    Hichhiker Just me.

    532
    12
    Apr 21, 2002
    Neither can my current Tivo (at least not legally). Its a nice feature, but I can't find that I miss not having it. I did set up the hacked version - but never use it. And with this setup I really won't need to, would I? One DVR in LR for HD there, one in closet for additional tuners and a bridge to my current SD distribution setup, and then an the "Moxi Mate" (basically the device I described in this thread) in other rooms. Cool thing is that it even supports live TV via "Mate" - not something I expected.

    My main concern is the usability. From what I see so far, it seems like its a pretty solid UI. It has 30-sec skip - which is essential, IMHO - and it does all the standard season passes, new only, priorities, and other stuff.

    I am guessing "wishlists" and "suggestions" are not as good, but I have no idea and I am not so sure how much I care. Internal drives are not upgradable, but at least they start large and provide eSATA port. Anything else I am missing?

    -HH
     
  3. innocentfreak

    innocentfreak Well-Known Member

    9,234
    54
    Aug 25, 2001
    Florida
    Comparing anything to a Directv Tivo though isn't exactly a balanced comparison since it doesn't even have some of the features the series 2 has.

    If you go the Premiere/HD route you might be able to transfer depending on your provider since it sounds like you would be dumping Directv for whatever new DVR you choose.

    Also Moxi doesn't do OTA if you need it. Suggestions is purely a TiVo feature so you won't find that at all and I don't know if Moxi has a wishlist type feature. Here is the Moxi discussion

    While your at it you might as well look at a Windows 7 HTPC with a Ceton tuner, which is supposed to be out May 31st.
     
  4. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

    1,792
    0
    Sep 15, 2006

    TiVo's have TTG. Using TD+ &/or pyTiVo you can transfer & transcode the file to play on multiple devices. It does remove it from the .TiVo container and change it to the appropriate container type or even transcode it. It is allowed because of the licensing.

    If you read the DMCA closely you will see various "loop holes" also jsut about anything is legal if it is authorized and licensed. DVD's Blu-rays all DRM but have to be decoded just to be playable and viewable on your TV set.


    Everyone has their preferences. Example. The UI for Netflix. I LOVE the Netflix UI that is implemented on the XBox 360. Absolutely HATE the Netflix UI that is used on the TiVo's. Thet Netflix UI that is used on my LG BD590 Blu-ray player is ok... not nearly as bad as TiVo, but not near is nice as the Xbox 360. Every UI is different. Some love the Boxee interface. Personally I don't like it. The WD Live UI is ok... I could see it being alot better. It isn't perfect, but there are other devices that are ALOT worse.

    Personally... I don't really like the old TiVo UI when it comes to the NPL. One of the MAIN reasons I have a DLNA NAS. You can't create your own folders or organize your recorded shows the way I would like on a TiVo. You can do that on a NAS & using pyTiVo the organization is wonderful.

    Simply put... When it comes to UI's for ANY device. We all have some complaints about every device we use! I can't stand the UI of current vehicles either? Why are we still using Steering wheels? Gas Pedals? Brake Pedals? and most of all why the hell are we still using KEYS!


    95% of the time I talk to anyone about home theater systems, most it seems don't even have the slightest idea what a DVR is or even a TiVo. Those that do haven't even conceived of all the possibilities. The majority of american mass consumers, (Not early adopters, geeks, nerds, or techies) are "SLOW" when it comes to using electronc devices. I will give you an example of this.

    GPS. I have been using GPS in my car in some form or another since early 1990. All the things that are NOW coming out that are making use of GPS, such as phones, cameras, etc I thought of back in the early 1990's. I wished that when I traveled and took pics that I had some form of GPS tracking on my camera. I dreamed of being able to have a portable GPS device in my phone that could tell me where I was without haveing to carry a suitcase sized GPS system. It has been 20 years, & yet GPS Navigation is STILL yet to be available (even as an option) in vehicles currently on the market today.

    Think of TiVo. How long has TiVo been selling DVR's? Yet TiVo still doesn't have the market share of DVR's. Most DVR's in consumers homes are still provided by Dish/DirecTV or your cable provider. Most mass consumers don't want to pay up front for a box. They would prefer to just pay monthly for the box from their cable provider. There are advantages to this. Your DVR dies, the cable company will replace it for no extra fee. One of the reasons I never bought a cable modem. Esepcailly since a cable modem rental fee for my area is only a $1 a month.



    Today it's all about subscription fees. Why? because in general while we all complain about them. We still pay them. Think about all the number of things we pay "monthly" for. What most don't realize is that a company wants a single user to generate a certain amount of revenue. Example.

    You but a TiVo for $499, & then pay $299 for a lifetime subscription. They generated $798. Now look at the moxi. No subscription fee. But then again it's around $798 as well. (lets not discuss the differences between the two boxes). My point being is that while moxi doesn't charge a subscription fee, they charge more for the box.

    TiVo WOULD do the same thing as well. However... After many many years of market research. (I have taken one of those surveys myself a few years back) They have found that MORE people would rather spend $499 for the box, and $299 for a lifetime subscription then spend $798 and the box not need a subscription. It's called PERCEIVED value. We feel like we are getting MORE with by paying a small amount for TWO items instead of a LARGE amount for ONE item.

    I am in the restaurant/food business. Look at candy bars. They don't raise the price they keep the same price but make the candy bar smaller.

    Another example... In my restaurant. Rather than charge $9.99 for one large chicken fried steak meal with all the sides. I charge $14.99 and you get two smaller chicken fried steaks... with all the same sides. Your actually still getting the same amount of chicken fried steak in both meals. (The two smaller ones are half the size of the big one). Yet when I did that. People PERCEIVE & FEEL like they are getting more food, when in fact they aren't. When I made the change My Chicken fried steak meals sales increased by a whopping 80% in just one month alone! My profit margin on the chicken fried steak meals increased by a factor of 15% as well.

    You have to remember TiVo is in buisness to make money. So it's all about the bottom line. What do people actually really do? Believe it or not, Most consumers don't really do the wisest thing when it comes to spending money. Especially in electronics AND the restaurant buisness!

    Yep... as much as we may hate it. They would have some form of subscription fees I am sure. Oh... one other note. Some people look at subscription fees as a form of payment for all the so called "Free" software updates your TiVo's get. I am sure if TiVo did away with subscription fees, they would start charging for MAJOR software updates that includes NEW features. So the MRV only box would have a subscription fee to cover the cost of providing "Free" software UPGRADES.

    Well I do believe TiVo does need to do more with what they have to work with. There are many reasons why they don't &/or can't do some of the things that they really should be doing.

    TiVo is a pretty conservative company. While they will go after and sue others for various reasons. They work very very hard as not to even come close to any gray areas to possibly get sued. They can't afford to BE sued & even lose. I beleive that is one of the reasons why they have shyed away from TiVo to TiVo streaming capability. Especially for those recordings that have the "Copy Protection" flag set.

    I don't know how your house is setup, or your "Systems" are set up. But I have 3 TV's and 3 TiVo's. I have one blu-ray player, one XBox 360, 3 Sling boxs (2 classic and one HD-PRo), and one WD Media Player Live.

    Every TV has a TiVo, & every tivo has a slingbox. The Home theater TV has a Blu-ray player and a XBox 360. one of the other TV's has the WD live hooked to it besides the TiVo.

    I have a dedicated Computer running TD+, Playon & pyTiVo. I have DLNA NAS server. The computer server automatically copies and converts my favorite series from ANY of the TiVo's and copies them to the DLNA server.

    All the TiVo's, the Blu-ray player which has a networked media player built in, the XBox 360, as well as the WD media player Liver can ALL see the video/music/pics on the DLNA server. When I want to watch them I can, on any set. The show is transfered via my wired network cable.

    I also RIP Blu-ray movies (That I own) and save them to my DLNA NAS server as well. That way I can watch them on ANY TV ANY time ANYONE wants too.

    Investment costs...
    First TiVo $800 (The S3 when first released) 2 HD units $300 a piece. 2 DLNA NAS servers in Raid 5 configuartion each with 4 - 2TB drives. (Gives me a total of 12TB of space) $2000. Computer $199, TD+ $29. pyTiVo free. Playon software $19. Wired the house in network cable myself for $350. (Cat 6). WD Live $99, LG BD590 Blu-ray player $379.

    The system works just fine for me. I can watch anything I have on any TV I wish too. The only ones I can't are those shows that have the "Copy Protected" flag set. I can watch most shows almost immediately. Albeit there are some speed issues transfering HD between TiVo's sometimes.

    TGC
     
  5. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

    1,792
    0
    Sep 15, 2006

    Advertisements

    I think I missed something though. IF your on DirecTV. A Moxi isn't going to work for you. Moxi's are setup for Cable / FIOS use only.

    Your pretty much "Stuck" with what you have and getting additional DirecTV TiVo's /DVR's.

    TTG is perfectly legal with TiVo's on a cable/FiOS system. It isn't with DirecTV because DirecTV doesn't provide the licensing for TTG.

    TGC
     
  6. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

    23,637
    1,299
    Jan 31, 2002
    Northern...
    Whether you rip BDs that you own or rent, it doesn't matter. it's just as illegal.



    That's rather expensive for only 12TB of storage. I have over fifty Terabytes of storage on my network for around 2.5x that cost.
     
  7. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

    1,792
    0
    Sep 15, 2006
    Really how?

    8 - 2TB drives at $200 each total $1600. Each NAS box bare was $200 for a total of $400.

    Street price of 2TB drives is still around $200. Although you could find them for a bit less online from some questionable dealers as well.

    TGC
     
  8. Hichhiker

    Hichhiker Just me.

    532
    12
    Apr 21, 2002
    You missed the point - if Tivo allows you to store a decrypted version - what was the point of encrypting it in the first place?

    Most UP&P clients that I have seen do not really allow you to see more than two or three items at a time, which, combined with lack of sorting control, makes it impossible to navigate. But it is purely the fault of the client and I only saw some of them - there are bound to be decent ones.

    Erm, many cars these days use keys as a backup mechanism only - and you need that backup, cause when you battery is dead, good luck using that fancy proximity remote ;-) As for steering wheels/pedals/etc - this is mostly to keep manufacturers from doing stupid things like "suicide shifters".

    Maybe I just live in a different part of the world, but around here most people are familiar with DVRs (even though many do not have them)

    Ok, now I just think you are exaggerating a bit here. For one, as I recall, unless you were in the military, GPS was not available to public until mid 90's. And for two, GPS option has been offered in cars for over a decade now, and from what I hear, these days its starting to appear as a standard option on some models.

    I think this has more to do with Tivo not being able to market properly. The cable/sat companies already were in the space but instead of working with them, they worked against them. Resulting market share is not a surprise.

    Of all the things I pay monthly for, all are for things providing some sort of external service to me. This is not the case with the box described here. And no, software updates do not count. I'd rather pay once in a while to get feature upgrades than to pay in a blind hope that one day they may deem me worthy of a software upgrade. (and given Tivo's track record in this department, its probably going to break something anyway) I pay for my cell phone service because it provides me with a communication channel. I do not pay monthly for my GPS or for my toaster - as there is nothing the company that manufactures these other than warranty and support that is part of its cost. I assume you would object paying monthly fees for your WD live or your hard drives?

    I think your numbers are a bit off, Tivo lifetime these days is $399 (though the unit is cheaper - $299 - so $698) - which is still a hefty 40% premium over Moxy's $499. And its double that when you have to choose between full blown Tivo vs Moxi Mate ($299) - at $400 savings per TV, that adds up to a huge difference once you get a few of them.

    I am not arguing that sometime perceived value is not same as actual. And sometimes people perceive more expensive items as more valuable even thought they are identical in every other respect. But that only works sometimes and most of the time it just puts you out of business. It does not excuse overcharging for things.

    As for your example, its completely off-topic but I really think your math is a bit off again. I am not sure what "factor of 15%" actually means, ...[deleted - I realized you probably meant 150% - that makes more sense]



    You have to also remember that loss of half of the subscriber base, including, it looks like, myself who's been a Tivo advocate since 2000, does not make good business. People forget that just charging more money does not make a good business. You have to provide value to the consumer for that money.

    I am not against the subscription fees - but you got to provide me something for it. In this case, they would already be charging me money for the first one (or more likely two) DVR boxes - as they provide the tribune data (costing them $20/year/box + servers+bandwidth). I can understand that - well, at least until they try cramming ads down my throat. But I do not see the reason for charging me for other boxes that they will NOT be providing service to. The box I am describing will have as much service from Tivo as your WD Live device does from WD. Its a playback device - thats all. Given the $200 netbooks, $99 Roku, and soon to be $200 Boxee box, the hardware is cheap enough and they have a solid software base already - it will not cost much to develop and can make a reasonable profit margin without monthly fees. Plus it may segway Tivo out of the dead end they currently find themselves in.

    In 2001 I was working with a company developing what is now the basis for all those FiOS and other telco based video delivery services (TV streams over uber-high speed vDSL). At that time the DVR death was clearly written on the wall. Once they have a direct unicast access to your home, they simply can provide all shows/content on-demand without storing anything at home at all. There was time back then for Tivo to morph into something else, become the front-end for the content delivery or become their own content provider or aggregator. Now that time is running out - comcast, at&t, verizon, apple, amazon, boxee, etc are all eating Tivo's lunch and laughing.

    Tivo got stuck in time and failed to make inroads with cable, lost DTV, and barely moved forward on hardware. They spend so much time making things more convoluted, they forgot to bring the value.

    Well, on one hand they are still here. On the other hand they are barely so. Being conservative can keep a company from going under, but it rarely makes a company grow. As always, the path is somewhere in between.

    My current system is setup as such:

    Closet:
    =====
    2x S2 DTivos
    1x XBOX running xbmc
    1x SVideo distribution system (going out to 5(up to 8) TVs via coax w/IR controls.)

    Living Room
    ========
    1x S2 DTivo - mostly for MRV use
    1x Mac Mini - mostly a toy, XBMC, Boxee, etc - not really a part of this

    All TVs:
    =========
    IR target
    TV
    Universal remote

    On any tv you can press a button and control anything in the closet. Identical remotes in every room which work exactly the same for the wife factor.

    There are a number of NASes in the garage, but those change and migrate too often to count. I can just as well share out a drive from my desktop.

    Total costs:
    $300 - about $99 per S2 DTivo (much cheaper these days I am sure)
    $125 - Xbox + modchip
    $900 - Distribution system with distribution splitter and IR targets ( I think it was cheaper actually, but its been a while)
    ~$200 - for 6 remotes 1 harmony, rest are $20 JP1's
    I did all my own wiring and I already had cables.

    This setup is amazingly simple and works wonders. As someone once said - "marital bliss is 'his' and 'hers' Tivos". We each have our own box to program and watch but can always switch to the other one if need be. We can also watch same thing on multiple TVs in the house or each watch our own thing. The big problem here is complete lack of HD. There are no cheap household ATSC modulators (although ZeeVee now has one, but component or VGA only and not cheap) There is an alternative in using HDMI distribution systems (send HDMI to TV via a HDMI matrix switch but a reasonable matrix switch (4x8) alone is $2-$3k minimum, and with HDMI being 2-way - this can cause all sorts of weirdness in connection negotiating.

    So, I wanted to see if switching to a network based distribution (MRV) is worth while - but its not an option with Tivo (too much per tv to get MRV boxes). Moxi is an option, but its 3x the cost per "Mate" I was thinking and adds up too quickly too. Its an option for AT&T and new DirecTV - and its relatively cheap (something like $99 + $5/mos per box)

    With boxee box on horizon, I am also wondering if TTG route is worthwhile. If automation is reliable it may be worth it, just use tivo for recording and watch through Boxee or UP&P boxes - but who knows. I have also been mulling dumping DVR and TV providers altogether and go through Netfix/Amazon route. May cut down on amount of TV I watch, which would be a plus.

    In any case, we really gotten off-topic here. I was wondering what people thought of an MRV-only box - and now there is a poll to find out exactly that.

    -HH
     
  9. Hichhiker

    Hichhiker Just me.

    532
    12
    Apr 21, 2002
    I am not attached to DirecTV - 10 years ago a DirecTivo had no rivals, today everyone caught up and surpassed. I assumed that with Tivo I would have to dump DTV as well.

    As for TTG - the question is not if TTG is legal - the question is - is it legal to decode .tivo files.

    -HH
     
  10. ZeoTiVo

    ZeoTiVo I can't explain

    25,527
    2
    Jan 2, 2004
    the decrypted version is of significantly less quality than the original. It is meant for portable screens like a laptop or smartphone. and would look awful on a large screen. Content owners have not been worried about lower quality rips for some time.
    I stopped reading your post after the above quote because you are just the kind of poster I have decided to lighten up on versus go point by point, simply not worth it anymore. have fun.
     
  11. Jonathan_S

    Jonathan_S Well-Known Member

    19,794
    1,913
    Oct 23, 2001
    Northern...
    Civilian versions were around earlier than that (although I'm not aware of any with integrated maps).

    I remember during the 1st gulf war that GPS selective avalibility got turned off over Iraq because the DoD didn't have enough military GPS units (not affected by selective avalibility) so a lot of troops were using civilian versions.


    And I believe TexasGrillChef's point wasn't that no cars offer GPS, it's that some new cars don't offer it; even as an option.
    IOW that there currently exist new cars for which you cannot order built in GPS. (That 20 years after it became avalible and years after it became a common feature it isn't yet a ubiquitously avalible option)
     
  12. Hichhiker

    Hichhiker Just me.

    532
    12
    Apr 21, 2002
    Ok, that actually makes sense. I was replying to this orignialy - claiming just the opposite

    Fair enough, considering my entire post was a point-by-point reply to TGS - (which was also, probably not worth my time writing, let alone your time reading, let alone your time replying). I am not sure why we got into all of this side discussions, but the real question I had was about chances of Tivo having an inexpensive MRV-only box and the general interest in such a device. (Larger question being, what are my options if I want to join 21st century and move to HD)

    BTW, Your Moxi suggestion was just on the nose, as "Moxi Mate" is exactly that kind of a device I was talking about.

    -HH
     
  13. innocentfreak

    innocentfreak Well-Known Member

    9,234
    54
    Aug 25, 2001
    Florida
    Not sure where you are shopping. 1tb are down to 69, 1.5tb to 99 and 2tb to 139 and lower.
     
  14. Hichhiker

    Hichhiker Just me.

    532
    12
    Apr 21, 2002
    I stand corrected. I could have sworn I remember announcement of opening of GPS to civilians right around time Internet was opened to businesses - i.e. 1993 - but I guess I am wrong.

    In that case I misunderstood that. I recall reading an article a while back about car companies backing away from or rethinking the built-in GPS systems because they lowed resale value. The argument was that the system was expensive (often extra $2k+) yet very quickly became outdated in maps AND in looks and features. They compared it to cars with built in phones. I am not sure how much I buy that argument, but it would certainly make it a good argument for making car entertainment system run an OS of some sort (Android?) and let people sell apps for it instead of having it be a dedicated closed hardware. Even if the app would be a hardware device that plugs in under the hood or in the trunk, I would much rather have a TomTom app in my car than either a TomTom device or most of the OEM Navs. And it would be nice to have options.

    -HH
     
  15. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

    23,637
    1,299
    Jan 31, 2002
    Northern...

    That's why it's so expensive. $200 for a 2TB drive is high. The last ten 2TB drives I purchased were around $140 each including shipping. Purchased from Newegg and Amazon. The last ten 1.5TB drives I purchased where around $100 shipped, again from Amazon and Newegg.
     
  16. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

    1,792
    0
    Sep 15, 2006
    Hichhiker

    Aha... I see your system now.

    Ok... well it looks like your NOT getting HD on your system now. Deffinately not with S2 DirecTiVo units & for sure NOT with Svideo.

    CNet's Molly Wood did an interview with TiVo's CEO and DirecTV will have a NEW TiVo unit coming out later this year that will fully support HD, and all the new capabilities that the S2 is not capable of at this time.

    When those new DirecTV TiVo's are released you will be able to get TTG, & MRV capability between TWO (or more) DirecTV TiVo's. All will be perfectly legal. Provided you don't try to resell your recordings & transfers.

    The new Series 3, Series 4 units don't really truly fully support working with the older S2 units. Sadly therefore even if TiVo did release an MRV only box. It PROBABLY would NOT work with your OLDER S2 units anyways.

    Keep in mind though. That the Moxi's WON'T work with DirecTV. Moxi AND TiVO won't work with AT&T UVERSE either.

    When the new DirecTV TiVO is released later this year, it will have MRV & TTG capability. Keep in mind though that some channels will be "COPY PROTECTED" and you WON'T be able to MRV or TTG any of the shows on that channel. Example HBO, Showtime, ESPN, etc...

    I would say that in your case, based on your system your upgrade path isn't going to be an inexpensive one. However the time is coming. Most of your equipment is still using the older SD standards.

    My recomendation. Wait for the new DirecTV HD TiVo (Series 3 DirecTV TiVo) to be released later this year & purchase 2 of those units. Sell your current DirecTV TiVo's on Ebay, then run Cat 6 cable around your house, or check on wireless N networking.

    TGC

    P.S.... In regards to the GPS... yes I had one back in 1990. It was very big, it was a prototype. I was a Field Beta Tester for Garmin & the Search & Rescue team I worked for back then.

    As far as GPS in cars. Yes they have been available as factory installs for about 10 years now. My point I was trying to make is that their are STILL NEW car models that you can go buy today that still DON'T have a factory GPS installed as an OPTION. However automakers usually though are very slow to adopt new "Tech" for their ENTIRE line of cars. It took about 8 years for MP3 capability to make it to EVERY car model as well.
     
  17. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

    1,792
    0
    Sep 15, 2006
    TD+ (TiVo Desktop +) software which is provided by TiVo does the decoding. So if it wasn't legal to decode a .TiVo file, I doubt TiVo would provide software that would decode it.

    TGC
     
  18. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

    1,792
    0
    Sep 15, 2006
    They are now... but not at the time I bought them. I bought those 8 drives the FIRST day they were released for RETAIL sale. Thus the higher price.

    TGC
     
  19. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

    1,792
    0
    Sep 15, 2006
    Well heres the thing. At the time I bought them I needed them "yesterday". So the reason I paid $200 for them, is because I bought them on the very FIRST day Seagate had them available for RETAIL sales. I didn't buy the "oem" version either. I purchased 8 retail drives on the very FIRST day they were released for sale.

    At that time Amazon & Newegg did not have them in stock yet. I bought them from CDW. Because they were the first retail outlet to receive them in stock.

    Now of course TODAY you can get the better prices. At the time I bought them, they were still around $200 a pop.

    TGC
     
  20. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

    23,637
    1,299
    Jan 31, 2002
    Northern...
    My first five 2TB drives were $140 in November. But I was not going to buy them when they were first released. I did that back when the 250GB drives first came out for around $300 each and swore I would never do that again.
     

Share This Page

spam firewall

Advertisements