Star Trek:TNG "Q Who" (S2E16)

Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by doom1701, Nov 27, 2011.

  1. DougF

    DougF Well-Known Member

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    What happened in the JJ's Star Trek is the same thing that happened in "Regeneration", IMO. Something happened in the past which changed events we have already seen on-screen.

    Why is it OK for Vulcan to have been destroyed in the past, therefore negating many, many things we have seen over the last 45 years but it is not OK for Borg to have been on Earth in the past therefore negating this episode?
     
  2. Fish Man

    Fish Man Phish Food

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    The difference is clear:

    J. J. Abrams movie is about time travel causing a split in the timeline. That's one of the primary plot points of the movie.

    "Regeneration" does not indicate or imply that any time line split was supposed to have occurred. As I said in my earlier post, "Regeneration", and indeed the entire ENT series, was clearly supposed to be in the same timeline as TOS, TNG, and DS9. The writers and producers said so, clearly, many times.

    So:

    JJ Abrams' "Star Trek" is specifically about time-travel causing a "split" in the time continuum (and, therefore, giving the writers another continuum to dramatically explore).

    "Regeneration" is a continuity error. Pure and simple. Apologists trying to explain it away by saying "Oh, um, yeah, the writers must have intended this to be yet a third time continuum, yeah, that sounds good, that must be it" doesn't make it so. That clearly wasn't the writers intent. It was an error on their part. (Or, as I said before, they expect us to believe that the keeping of historical records sucks worse in the 22nd - 24th centuries than at any other time in human history.)
     
  3. JYoung

    JYoung Series 3

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    Please stop trying to excuse piss poor writing.

    The stated goal of the new movie was to create a new timeline to play in and that was clearly stated in the movie.

    As Fish Man says, Regeneration is supposed to take part in the TOS/TNG/VOY continuity.
    (Otherwise, why are Riker and Troi in These Are the Voyages?)

    And it still makes the assumption that Picard and the crew of the Enterprise-E are TOO STUPID to even check for the large amount of debris and the Borg drones seen in Regeneration.

    (Heck, this was handled better in Justice League Unlimited's The Once and Future Thing (Part 1): Weird Western Tales.)

    And it was also stupid that Seven of Nine demonstrated knowledge of the Borg being at First Contact in Year of Hell but at least that was a throwaway line.
     
  4. gchance

    gchance 4 8 15 16 23 42

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    What I hoped they would do (and didn't) would be to have Worf magically look like the OTHER Klingons when in the past, and like himself in the present. Yes, it would have been over the top funny, but we're talking Tribbles here.

    Greg
     
  5. pteronaut

    pteronaut Well-Known Member

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    SpikeTV ran DS9 for about 2 full rotations a few years back.
     
  6. DougF

    DougF Well-Known Member

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    Why wouldn't they be? How does a couple of drones crash landing in Santa's backyard prevent that?
     
  7. JYoung

    JYoung Series 3

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    The Butterfly Effect.

    Or you could simply reread Loadstar's points:
     
  8. DougF

    DougF Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't answer the question at all. Did I misread or was your point not that the events of "Regeneration" should have changed the timeline so drastically that Riker and Troi should not have been in "These are the Voyages"? What am I missing?
     
  9. JYoung

    JYoung Series 3

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    The fact that nothing changed for Riker and Troi in spite of them being in the same timeline as Regeneration.

    They were still on the Enterprise and the events of The Pegasus still happened.
    No changes to the timeline at all.
     
  10. Fish Man

    Fish Man Phish Food

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    Even more importantly, at the end of First Contact, when they returned to the 24th century. It was completely unchainged!

    Had Picard and crew really left the Borg ship on the earth of the 21st century, when they returned to their own time they would have found it unrecognizable.

    So, the fact that Picard and crew returned to a totally unchanged 24th century proves that the events of the 22nd century depicted in "Regeneration" could not possibly have happened.

    And, now, I'm at least the 3rd person to have explained this.

    DougF is being obtuse.
     
  11. DougF

    DougF Well-Known Member

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    I'm not being obtuse, I'm just trying to follow your logic.

    So, nothing was changed in the 24th century. What did you expect to see?
     
  12. Fish Man

    Fish Man Phish Food

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    And I'll say this again:

    Enterprise apologists (like the one we have here) sometimes say, "Well, we have the 'prime' timeline, and we have the JJ Abrams timeline, and we have the 'Mirror Universe', so, I guess the writers of Enterprise must have simply meant it to be occurring in a third timeline or another parallel universe."

    NO! If that were the case they would have said so!

    Stop creating your own apocrypha to explain or excuse their bad writing! :mad: :rolleyes:
     
  13. DougF

    DougF Well-Known Member

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    I'm not an apologist. I enjoyed the show for the most part, but I'm certainly not passionate about it. I just can't understand why fanboys like yourself get so angry about it. It's just a TV show.

    Anyway, if you don't have an answer, maybe someone else does. What changes did you expect to see in the 24th century, given what happened in "Regeneration"? I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm genuinely curious because I'm apparently missing something.
     
  14. Fish Man

    Fish Man Phish Food

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    The humans of the 22nd century (Archer's time) were exposed to the Borg and their technology according to "Regeneration".

    You really think that profound experience wouldn't have changed Picard's 24th century?

    The apocryphal explanation, that I think you are trying to put forward doesn't cut it either. I think you're saying that the events depicted in Regeneration were simply supposed to be part of Picard's past.

    The events of "Q-Who" state unequivocally that this was Humanity's first encounter with the Borg.

    If the events of Regeneration were part of Picard's past, then someone on the Enterprise D would have done a search in the computer and discovered, "Oh, look, we've encountered this species before, in the 22nd century."

    So, to believe your apocryphal explanation, we have to believe that the historical records of the 24th century are badly damaged.
     
  15. doom1701

    doom1701 Time for a new Title TCF Club

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    I'm not going to be an Enterprise apologist by any means...but I will be a First Contact basher. FC was a poorly conceived time travel story, and it isn't surprising that it would lead to all sorts of confusion in future stories.

    Even pretending that there was no Borg presence on Earth during/after FC, the interference that the Enterprise crew played in the past with Cochrane and his townsfolk had to have left ripples in the timeline. The Enterprise crew didn't show up and pretend that they were visiting engineers from another city. They seemed to blather on to anyone that would listen that they were from the future. How am I supposed to believe that all of these townsfolk, working with these people from the future, probably using some future tech, talking about things like how there's a statue of Cochrane and how schools were named after him and blah blah, are just going to keep this quiet going forward?

    Personally, I prefer to believe that nothing after "All Good Things" is canon...it just makes me sleep better at night.
     
  16. Fish Man

    Fish Man Phish Food

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    doom1701 makes some very good points.

    I liked the movie, in that it "showed" a Human's first warp flight, which was a cool milestone.

    But the point is well taken that all the open talking about the future would almost surely have changed it.

    But, again, if you use this problem with the writing in "First Contact" to explain that the events of "Regeneration" were simply "supposed to be" part of the past in the TNG timeline, it doesn't follow that the Enterprise D's computer wouldn't contain any record of having encountered the Borg before. Even if they didn't have the name "Borg" at the time, the computer would have had a record of the characteristics of the species.

    Finding cyborg/humanoid hybrids like this in the arctic in the 22nd century would have been a major historical event, that would have been in the Enterprise D's computer.
     
  17. doom1701

    doom1701 Time for a new Title TCF Club

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    You're still assuming that this was some problem with Enterprise...I put the blame on First Contact for that screwup. Enterprise had it's problems (enough that I only watched a few episodes), but all of this Borg in the past mumbo-jumbo was the result of FC being a poorly executed storyline.

    Heck, if we want to focus on details missing from the future...why didn't Cochrane take a minute to warn Kirk and Crew about an impending Borg invasion in TOS? :)
     
  18. JYoung

    JYoung Series 3

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    That something major was changed.
    You can't have a large change to the timeline and expect nothing in the future to have changed.

    You forgot about the movies.
    :rolleyes:

    I'd like to point out you use the term "fanboys" in what could be interpreted as a pejorative fashion.
    (And here you are posting and participating in a fan rewatch. Hmmmmm.)

    What you seem fail to understand is that Star Trek was always considered a "smart" TV show.
    They didn't always succeed in making "smart" episodes but for the most part, they tried to.

    At least until Enterprise.

    Even though Voyager bored me at times, I never watched an episode of Star Trek and felt like my intelligence had been completely insulted

    Until I watched crap like "A Night in Sickbay" and "Regeneration".

    It seemed obvious to me that the idiots in charge thought I was stupid and I personally found that to be insulting.

    And to this day, Rick Berman thinks that "A Night in Sickbay" was a great episode and "Nemesis" was a great movie.

    No, "Ooopss, we screwed up" from him. It's "The fans just don't get it" and "We made a great movie. I don't know why the fans didn't go see it."

    Yeah, sell your crazy over there. I ain't buying.




    Actually, they did have a cover story but they weren't get anywhere with Cochrane by using it.


    The only people who they were shown talking to about the future were Cochrane and Lilly.
    There's no evidence to suggest any other of the locals knew.

    That said, I think that there were enough people killed in the Borg salvo on Bozeman, that there should be some effect.


    Supposedly, Cochrane talked about about "Cyborgs from the future" when he was loaded.
    Which according to T'Pol, was frequently.
     
  19. daveak

    daveak Series 3 Novice

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    This is actually a pretty good thread. The discussion (depending how you view it) almost borders on religion and politics. This talk of Canon, Regeneration, Apocrypha, and historical events is fascinating. Actually, it really is - some of you are pointing out a few things I haven't thought much about and I appreciate it.

    *Disclaimer* The only Star Trek I have never really watched was the Enterprise series (well a couple eps once).
     
  20. cwerdna

    cwerdna Proud Tivolutionary

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    WAY before Enterprise aired and I think even before that Tribbles DS9 ep, I remember reading an "official" Star Trek book that the the Klingons we see in TOS were genetically engineered to look more human to be better infiltrate the Federation. It stated that it wasn't until the V'ger incident did the Federation discover what Klingons really looked like.
     

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