So, will there be a NON-HD Series 3?

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by Jasoco, Jan 8, 2006.

  1. Jan 12, 2006 #81 of 117
    Shawn95GT

    Shawn95GT Tivo, in HD!

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    Even if the next gen would record from two composite inputs it would be nice.

    I doubt it's possible due to hardware limitations, but if you could treat the RF input and the composite as two seperate tuners on a S2, that'd be a heck of an upgrade too!

    Shawn
     
  2. Jan 12, 2006 #82 of 117
    HDTiVo

    HDTiVo Not so Senior Member

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    I hope this is as good a place as any to introduce this question about cost:

    What does a CC slot and an ATSC tuner add to the cost of a device at retail presently?

    Understanding these numbers would and alot to predictions about future S2/S3 models and pricing.
     
  3. Jan 12, 2006 #83 of 117
    lajohn27

    lajohn27 Fanboi.. So what?

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    Yeah who knows.. 14 months.. if you think about it.. that's about the current time in market for the S2 nightlight box..

    LOTS of cable and satellite boxes have composite outputs... like umm.. ALL of them. Yes, I suppose some very old ones don't.. but my point was the box (any TIVO with analog inputs) would control a future box (atsc, cable, satellite whatever) just fine.. as long as those receivers have SVHS/ RCA AUD/VID outs.. and dang near all of them do.

    As for what the TGC box has..

    - larger capacity - ships with 160 GB default
    - slightly higher resolution recording is possible
    - on board Ethernet

    As for what powers that box.. nobody has definitely determined that the TGC box is otherwise the same as a current S2.

    As I admitted at the end of my post => it may not happen... but my gut says it will.
     
  4. Jan 12, 2006 #84 of 117
    classicsat

    classicsat Astute User

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    Theoretically as laJohn stated, to meet the March 2007 requirement of ATSC or no tuner, and/or to reinvigorate a nearly 2 year old product line.

    IMO, they could work with STB manufacturers to make analog/ATSC/CC tuners compatible with the tunerless S2+.
     
  5. Jan 12, 2006 #85 of 117
    Justin Thyme

    Justin Thyme Contra sceleris

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    People seem to be using the 62-63 million cable households, not the ncta number of customers. They quote the households number.

    GAO Cost of STBs for switchover study, page 8
    Press- USA Today 11/2005
    Cable Advertizers

    I did find a place where NCTA listed households... [Edit- I read an ncta graph wrong- thought it agreed with the 63M number- it doesn't. oops]

    If they are right, then using the ncta number for digital cable, we wind up with my number of 36-37 million. My numbers came from a Natexis Bleichroeder study from last summer, but it probably costs a fortune, and I can't find any places where the details of the study are listed.

    44 million sounds better for the sake of my argument, but I'll stick with the more conservative number.

    And those guys really are stable. According to the above mentioned article, "Cable operators are going all out to sell extra-fee digital TV service, although only 3% of people who don't get it say they're "considering" buying it..." Same percentage for DBS. So that market segment isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
     
  6. Jan 13, 2006 #86 of 117
    Jasoco

    Jasoco New Member

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    I saw a video of a Series 3 demonstration and the guy said even though it's meant for HD, it can down convert to SD, so my question is half moot. The only problem really left is the price. I wouldn't want to pay $500-700 for something that is meant to do something I can't. It's like putting a $1000 sound system in a Model T. Overkill.

    Which is why I would think it'd still be a good idea at this point in time to release an SD version of the Series 3, or at least update a Series 2 with some of the S3's non-HD features. i.e. dual tunrs, the cool display (Which does show what is recording at the time. Wait for some hackers to make it output stuff like temperature and news RSS feeds. It'll happen.) with the HD space guage, large HD...

    That's all I really want. I don't need statistics of how many people have HD TV's. Fact and point is it will be a long time before I, or many MANY people in the US will be able to even afford or will even want to upgrade to HD. We have 6 TV's in this house. ALL are SD. half of them are brand new within the last year. (4 are Sylvania.) It's gonna be a warm day in January before we upgrade all of them.. bad example. It'll be a long time is all. Because until HD TV's come down to the same price a SD TV is now, none are entering this house.
     
  7. Jan 13, 2006 #87 of 117
    classicsat

    classicsat Astute User

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    If you are looking for a cheaper version of the 648 S3, you want an S3 Lite.

    If I were a member of the cost reduction engineering team, I'd eliminate:

    The OLED display in favor of a traditional S2.5 or next gen panel.

    ESATA (if there is a standalone SATA chipset)
    HDMI/Component (keep digital audio though, unless that is dependant on the HDMI/Component chipset, if that is extra silicon).

    Reduce down to one tuner set. Eliminate the Antenna/Cable Matrix switch.

    Include traditional Peanut (or more basic new peanut)

    Use 80 GB drive.

    For a middle ground, basically include the second tuner and the HD outs in the Lite model.
     
  8. Jan 13, 2006 #88 of 117
    Jasoco

    Jasoco New Member

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    The whole reason to get a S3 IS the dual tuners! You drop the second tuner, there's no reason to even get an S3 if you don't have HD.

    I'd slap the cost reduction engineering team if they did that. Unless by "one tuner set" you meant set as in set of two. Because there are 6 right now. A non-HD TiVo would of course only need two standard tuners.

    I'd say drop the front screen all together. Drop the HD expansion all together. 120 Hour HD. Regular remote.

    Also drop HDMI and Component. S-Video on my SD TV is pretty much close enough.
     
  9. Jan 13, 2006 #89 of 117
    Stormspace

    Stormspace Electrocuted by TiVo

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    You could also drop built in ethernet and fall back on the traditional usb adapters.
     
  10. Jan 13, 2006 #90 of 117
    Jasoco

    Jasoco New Member

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    Yeah, I wouldn't be opposed to that. I already have my S2 hooked up to wireless and keeping it wireless would keep a port free on my router anyway.

    I'd probably get one of the new TiVo branded ones though once transferring to my Mac becomes a reality.

    For now I stick with the LinkSys one I have.
     
  11. Jan 13, 2006 #91 of 117
    shepler76

    shepler76 New Member

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    I agree, Just make it like the D*TiVo's but add a dual CC tuner. My cable company is changing over to all digital on there systems, and it would be nice to be able to record the digital channels
     
  12. Jan 13, 2006 #92 of 117
    ZeoTiVo

    ZeoTiVo I can't explain

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    I am an SD extended basic cable person as well so this interests me

    in my case I could drop cable card as well but there are enough digital out there that it needs to be added back.


    so yes having two tuners is a good thing - but it really only adds for me one Season pass manager and sometimes ability to watch LIVE TV with trick play while recording something. Which are both good :)

    but if I only got that it actually is not worth much more than the cost of Two TiVo's
    so we are at 400$ and 6.95 a month including Lifetime on one and discount monthly on second.

    but to really sell a "series 3 SD" they need to maintain the networking features
    and for me, I need faster TTG and more repsonsive box for menus, season pass manager, and HME so that means bump up the processor and memory and add in ethernet. so add in another $100

    hmm - if a Series 3 as is hits 500$ then it is good to go for me as is since I get future upgrade to HD thrown in as well and could record OTA HD for SD output today and get mpeg4 download content or for TiVoToComeBack. another great feature.

    I think the series 3 will hit 500$ after rebate very quickly. no need to mkae a much fancier series 2 than the TGc model already out - and they may even be able to keep the 50$ price on a TGC model if offered here.

    I still see an SD only TiVo with two tuners as just not worth TiVo's consideration.
    especially if they feel they could sell the series 3 for 400 - 500 at some not to distanat point since I can hook my cable feed to it directly with no cable card and record everything I record now.
     
  13. Jan 13, 2006 #93 of 117
    kjmcdonald

    kjmcdonald New Member

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    Ok. So a tunerless box would be a cable/satellite only box? I guess that could happen, and might be useful longer than 14 mos. I'll concede it's possible. I have no way of judging how probable it is.

    Ok. sounds like the DVD recording Tivo minus the DVD recorder plus ethernet.
    Makes sense to use that as the stepping off point for the greater china market - I think someone said the greater china market is 100% (or nearly) analog broadcast or cable.

    I still think, based on what I've read about Tivo's plans for it's service upgrades (interactive ads and information, broadband delivered movies, etc.) That features like processing power, memory, MPEG4, etc. are going to be more important in North America. S2's are working now, but I'm sure what Tivo wants to do will tax the S2 hardware quite a bit, and S1's can't do this stuff at all.

    To really have this advertising, commerce, gaming, content delivery system take off, and make money for Tivo, they need to get the userbase that can use these features grown as quickly as possible. I don't see any S2 based system as furthering these goals. I'm betting they've seriously upgraded the hardware in the S3 to handle these new money making ideas, and I don't think they'll want to put any more models out there that don't have those same capabilities. I'm willing to agree there may be something out in the future for the 'lower-end' market, but I can't see them basing it on the S2 at all. Maybe my imagination is just too limited?

    Maybe a tunerless S3 with analog SD inputs and smaller disks? Maybe.

    Maybe a single ATSC tuner S3 (Maybe with, maybe without cablecard?) with analog SD inputs? More likely I'd think though how much less expensive?


    Personally, I prefer to see a Tivo 'viewer' device developed. I have 2 S2's now and 2 tuners is enough. It would be worth the higher price right away for the S3 if I could buy a viewer only Tivo that connects to my ethernet for my other TV's.

    If because it didn't record, it had no monthly or lifetime sub required, then I'd even pay a decent profit over the HW costs to tivo for it. It could be a money maker, as opposed to a subsidized loss they hope to make up for with the subscription.

    What would it cost? Who knows. I'd be happy only watching already recorded programs, so some amount of buffer memory could eliminate the need for the disk drive. I'd be happy with only 10-20mins at a time of the transfered program.

    If (to provide the full Tivo experience) they provided a tuner with this viewer to pause and rewind etc. live TV I wouldn't complain but that I imagine would increase the cost. Like most Tivo fans I've met once you get used to having your shows recorded and waiting, the live TV features become much less interesting.

    I've posted it before, but I put it out there again, I Think Tivo should do a deal with Sony, or do a 'game/program' disk them selves for the ps3 and xbox360 (the ones with disk drives) to make them run a viewer-only 'Tivo' program. I plan on having a PS3 anyway that won't just play games, it will be my blu-ray movie player in my home theatre. Why not have it be my Tivo viewer too?

    -Kyle
     
  14. Jan 15, 2006 #94 of 117
    Justin Thyme

    Justin Thyme Contra sceleris

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    Charles (ccwf) said the Taiwan market was 100% analog now, 70% of homes in Taipei had broadband, but that HDTV would only begin to be available in 2006. Digital switchover slated for 2010. More interesting facts from CCWF about Taiwan and other asian countries here.

    That's a cell processor- vastly different programming model (why that can be fatal), and what is the input mechanism- I don't think PS3 will have cablecard support, or analog inputs to digitido they even allow hardware expansion?

    Besides- While game machines sound like a good idea for dual purpose entertainment systems, in practice I have found that the wives don't like them in the living room, and even though the rest of the family may want to watch a movie together, no one wants to bug the man while he is pinned down by Nazis in Normandy. It's more a machine that gets booted out of a common room into a more private room where the carnage can go on uninterupted for hours and hours or days on days on end....

    I am a little skeptical of the game machine piggeyback scheme.
     
  15. Jan 16, 2006 #95 of 117
    murgatroyd

    murgatroyd Don't stop believin'

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    I fall into this group also. Analog cable, two SA TiVos, 2 VCRs, no cable boxes. Most of the cable boxes I've had over the years have been so crappy, I much prefer not having one.

    I first got a programmable box for NBC's PPV 'Triplecast' for the Barcelona Olympics. I was recording 2 of the three channels of 12-hour daily broadcasts by staggering tapes in my VCR. One day I came home to find the cable box had a message for me. I had hours of "you have a message" blinking over and over on top of the diving coverage. :mad:

    But the worst of all was the cable box that lost its memory/programming during the power outage, and had to be brought in to the office for reprogramming. After that incident I think I swapped it once, but the second time, I got rid of the cable box. It was too much hassle for not enough gain, since I was only using it for HBO. Now that HBO is only available on the digital tier, and most of the HBO-only TV content I want to see is showing up on DVD eventually, I have NO reason to get the digital tier simply to get the old premium channels like HBO or Showtime.

    Also, I can barely keep up with what I want to watch on analog cable right now. I can't justify the expense of the digital package just to get a handful of digital channels which are of interest to me, when I don't have time to watch more TV as it is.

    If there were SA TiVos like the DTiVos which could record digital cable without the need for a separate cable box, I might be tempted to add the digital package, but it's still a lot of money for content I'm mostly not interested in.

    Edited to add: to answer another point of Doug's earlier in the thread, yes, some of us have TiVos and don't have fancy TVs. Have any of the manufacturers considered that some of us don't have space for large TVs? Ours is a 13" -- yes, smaller than a lot of your computer monitors.

    Also edited to add: My spouse is thrifty. He's willing to indulge me and buy a new recorder every 2 years, but he won't buy a new TV until the current one breaks or he is otherwise forced to.

    Jan
     
  16. Jan 16, 2006 #96 of 117
    dswallow

    dswallow Save the Moderatоr TCF Club

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    Yeah but nowadays if you have a wall, you have room for a large TV. :p
     
  17. Jan 16, 2006 #97 of 117
    murgatroyd

    murgatroyd Don't stop believin'

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    We don't have wall space.

    We have bookshelves.

    And :p to your :p, Doug. I like you, I don't mean to attack you personally. But you are showing that all-too-human tendency to assume that the way you are is the way everyone is or should be.

    I accept that we are different, indeed, I celebrate that diversity. You have different preferences than mine in some things; that's life. I would appreciate it if you would not look down your nose at me simply because I live in a small place and have a tiny TV.

    Jan
     
  18. Jan 16, 2006 #98 of 117
    dswallow

    dswallow Save the Moderatоr TCF Club

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    It would be nice in the future if you didn't try to find something negative in things people say. I meant nothing negative whatsoever. What makes you believe I look down on you or anyone for living in a small place or have a small TV? Did I say something in that regard somewhere else? Because I certainly didn't say it here.
     
  19. Jan 16, 2006 #99 of 117
    murgatroyd

    murgatroyd Don't stop believin'

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    Okay, I note that you didn't mean to be negative. Apologies.

    I'll confess that I am annoyed by remarks of the "you could just do X" type in general.

    For the general discussion (not necessarily in response to your remarks) I just want to point out that we all have a tendency to say "people can just do X" when what we really mean is "well, I could just do X and it would work for me". We don't consider that X isn't always an acceptable solution for everyone.

    For instance, once upon a time I read an article where the guy in charge of the food stamp prograrm did a mock-budget showing how "people could get by" on X amount of money for their grocery budget. And his calculations involved buying a lot of things in bulk, which would not always be practical for people who live in urban settings, or don't have the wherewithal to make large purchases of food. Simply because HE had the room for an extra freezer in his garage, and a clean place to store 50-lbs bags of rice, he just assumed that any family of four would.

    Yes, for people with wall space, the solution exists of hanging the TV on the wall. But for those of us who rent, whose lease precludes us hanging stuff on the wall, this elegant solution is not available.

    Apologies again for being cranky at you.

    Jan
     
  20. dswallow

    dswallow Save the Moderatоr TCF Club

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    My point was that technology changes the rules on us sometimes.

    Well, you could get some fancy custom made metal stand that'd hang it in front of your bookcases and let you flip it up flat against the ceiling. :)

    Or wait 3 years and you can have the holographic display aimed anywhere there's a few cubic feet of airspace in your room.

    Speaking of wall space... I'm really torn over the whoe EBook concept -- I'd love to regain 2 full walls that I've covered with bookshelves and books, but I don't think I can bring myself to part ways with the low-tech physical printed book that I can read anywhere, no power required, no batteries needed... that if necessary I could just toss in a trash can and replace for a few dollars elsewhere if I couldn't carry it around.

    Personally, I think I might wait till we get the television implants perfected. :D
     

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