Romeo Moca Scenario Help ...Tricky

Discussion in 'TiVo Help Center' started by halflifecrysis, Feb 5, 2017.

  1. Feb 5, 2017 #1 of 30
    halflifecrysis

    halflifecrysis New Member

    12
    2
    Feb 4, 2017

    Advertisements

    Fresh new build home. I will have internet only on a dedicated line/coax. Want to cut the cord on TV.

    I'm having an attic antenna installed above the garage. This line will come down and split to all the other coaxs in the home excluding the one dedicated for internet. No more splitters elsewhere in the home, but I do suspect my main splitter in the garage will be amplified due to the distance of the runs throughout the house to six locations.

    Enter a Romeo OTA in the main living room that will have direct Ethernet to router and coax for the OTA in the garage. Pretty simple.

    Next a Mini TiVo in a close room that will also have a direct line to the router via Ethernet. More or less my home is mostly networked with cat 5. This Mini box in room 2 will be plugged in to the same router as the main Romeo and as I understand that's all, no coax needed right? Ethernet and power and it's up and running.

    So far this should be easy, BUT I made an error in my Ethernet location in one room (room 3). So on this tv in this 3rd room I want a 2nd Mini TiVo, but I would need to use this MOCA setup on it. All I have near this TV is one of my main coax lines (one of the six that is receiving live OTA from that attic antenna like all the other lines in the house).

    I don't technically plan on hooking up this coax in this 3rd room to the TVs antenna input per se. I'm assuming I'll be using this coax only for the MOCA loop/connection on the mini. As said earlier this coax does go back to the garage where all coaxs marry up to the attic antenna.

    So how Smart is this equipment? One Mini on Ethernet input only, one Mini on coax mocha input.

    Am I going to have issues? Need filters or is this pretty straight forward?

    Thanks for any advice!
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2017
  2. Feb 5, 2017 #2 of 30
    UCLABB

    UCLABB Well-Known Member

    5,482
    1,466
    May 29, 2012
    Riverside, CA
    You need to create MOCA for the second mini. It won't do to just attach the coax from the antenna. I'll let the experts give you the exact instructions.
     
  3. Feb 5, 2017 #3 of 30
    fcfc2

    fcfc2 Well-Known Member

    2,588
    550
    Feb 19, 2015
    Who is your ISP? What is your router? Can you get an Ethernet cord to your Tivo OTA? Can you provide a diagram of you current situation coax/network wise?
    In any case you will probably need one MoCA filter, possibly a couple sat grade diplexers, and at least one MoCA adapter.
     
  4. Feb 5, 2017 #4 of 30
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    16,026
    2,988
    Nov 25, 2003
    The TiVo "Whole Home" solution works fine with a mix of Ethernet and MoCA. The main things you'll need to avoid are allowing the OTA antenna and cable TV/Internet signals onto the same coax lines, and letting the MoCA signals get to the antenna. Also, if you find that you do need an amplifier for your antenna signal, its placement will be crucial, since amps can pose problems for MoCA signals. Of course, you first have to have a MoCA network for these concerns to matter. Since none of your TiVo devices are capable of creating a MoCA network, you'll need a MoCA adapter to provide this function, connected to the Ethernet LAN and to a coax line connecting back to the coax outlets at which you want MoCA connectivity.

    OTA/CATV signal isolation :: Your described setup with the isolated cable Internet run, and known Ethernet connectivity at the Living Room Roamio location, indicates you'll be able to keep the cable TV/Internet signals completely physically isolated from the OTA antenna signals, so you're good on this front.

    ? Question ? :: Separate from the cable Internet coax run, will you also have an antenna coax run from the "OTA" splitter in the garage to the cable modem location? (Not critical that you do, just need to know what options are available for placement of the MoCA-creating MoCA adapter.)
     
    halflifecrysis likes this.
  5. Feb 5, 2017 #5 of 30
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    16,026
    2,988
    Nov 25, 2003

    Advertisements

    Re: antenna/satellite diplexers

    Though we're not working with satellite signals, antenna/satellite diplexers can be helpful in some MoCA setup scenarios. The difference maker is that the MoCA technology employed in TiVos uses frequencies up in the satellite range (MoCA "D band") ...

    Signal frequencies:

    OTA: 54-806 MHz
    cable (TV/Internet): 5-1002 MHz
    MoCA (D band): 1125-1675 MHz
    Diplexer passpand frequencies:

    ANT (VHF/UHF) port: 40-806 MHz
    SAT port: 950-2150 MHz

    ... allowing use of a diplexer for merging or splitting OTA & MoCA signals.

    Some users have used diplexers to isolate OTA and CATV coax segments while allowing MoCA to flow between the segments through the diplexer "SAT" port (not needed by you, owing to the planned physical separation); to conserve OTA signal strength while delivering the antenna signal to a single outlet of a MoCA-enabled multi-outlet coax plant; or simply to split MoCA & OTA signals onto separate coax lines, at a slightly lower signal loss than would be experienced using a 2-way splitter, when each line only needs the associated signal.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  6. Feb 5, 2017 #6 of 30
    halflifecrysis

    halflifecrysis New Member

    12
    2
    Feb 4, 2017


    Let me make sure I understand and clarify.

    The cable modem run will have no connection to the OTA ecosystem. The room that has the cable modem is my theater room. The router is a Netgear Nighthawk AC1700. Actually this one room will be where an Ethernet connected Mini will be. My understanding is that this Mini does not need an OTA signal since it will be on my network.

    In this theater room is a cat 5 wall plate that sends Ethernet signals throughout the house. So the router will be kicking a direct Ethernet signal to the master Romeo downstairs on our family room TV. So I believe the Romeo and Mini #1 should work like peas and carrots.

    It's the office downstairs that I had a coax and power outlet placed up on a wall and the Ethernet in this room is far away from where the TV will be. This was my dumb move, but when I ordered this custom low voltage stuff I had planned on being on cable TV.

    So in my office Mini #2 has three choices, I either (a) powerline adapter it to use ethernet, (b) trick it with a 5ghz bridge adapter (c) figure out Mocha. It's a new home and the router (theater room) is directly above the office. Option A or B truly may be the most simple. :-/
     
  7. Feb 5, 2017 #7 of 30
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    16,026
    2,988
    Nov 25, 2003
    We're typing past each other. I understand your setup, given the excellent description in the OP, and MoCA is easily doable for you -- in case that wasn't made clear in the earlier posts.

    I appreciate the latest post, and do understand some of the frustration, but this post doesn't provide any additional detail beyond the OP, didn't answer the one question posed above, and doesn't make clear where the information provided thus far by several commenters falls short in advancing your understanding of MoCA and how to make it happen for your setup.

    I had other feedback and details to add, but figured it would be best to wait until I heard back on the outstanding question -- and, further, didn't want to invest too much time posting if your's was just another drive-by query, as often happens. How you proceed is entirely up to you -- obviously -- but a bit of MoCA flavoring in your network setup will be quite trivial, provided a bit of dialogue back and forth.

    Again, I understood this from your very detailed OP (thx!); however, it doesn't answer my one question regarding whether there would be an additional OTA-only coax run to the same location as the cable modem & router. This run isn't critical; it would just allow for more flexibility in your deciding where to place the necessary MoCA-creating MoCA adapter.


    -----
    edit:
    p.s. The diplexer background info post was just informational. You won't have a *need* for diplexers in your setup; however, understanding how they function may allow you to save a few dBs of signal strength in some areas of your configuration.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2017
    halflifecrysis likes this.
  8. Feb 6, 2017 #8 of 30
    halflifecrysis

    halflifecrysis New Member

    12
    2
    Feb 4, 2017
    I did miss a question.

    The cable modem run is solo. That room has no other or extra coax. In deciding to kick cable I decided to sacrifice that one wall plate for the cable company to keep it away from the OTA stuff.

    I think I was mistaken thinking that mini #2 in the downstairs office would simply talk to the Romeo over coax even if the coax was shared with OTA signals simply because they'd all connect at that splitter in the garage. It's almost like I'm treating (in my head) that Mocha is just powerline, but over coax and that the Romeo and Mini #2 would just find each other without much fuss. I was thinking both devices had everything they needed built in to work minus perhaps a filter or something.

    I don't want to waste your time, but basic advice is welcome and I do plan on sticking around the forums. :)
     
  9. Feb 6, 2017 #9 of 30
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    16,026
    2,988
    Nov 25, 2003
    Correct, although... NONE of your Minis will need the "OTA signal"; the Roamio will do all the OTA tuning, and will stream the recorded or live content to the Minis via your home network (a mix of Ethernet and MoCA, in your case).

    Yep.

    Zero problem, once a MoCA network has been established on the coax lines connecting to that coax wall outlet.

    - - -

    I guess part of my issue is not understanding your level of knowledge of MoCA.

    At its most general, MoCA's not much different than wireless or Powerline, with which you're obviously familiar. In the case of both wireless and Powerline you'll have an access point that links devices using the associated protocol over to the Ethernet LAN -- in the case of wireless it's typically via a wireless access point in-built in the router, and Powerline will require a Powerline adapter connected to your Ethernet LAN (and connected, by necessity, to an electrical outlet). MoCA is more similar to Powerline, per my previous description...

    So, tossing aside the generalities, the Office coax outlet for Mini #2 needs a MoCA signal. The simplest solution for you will be to connect this outlet back to your OTA splitter, and have the MoCA signal injected onto these lines via a MoCA adapter at another of your OTA-connected outlets, though it must be a location where there is also access to your Ethernet LAN. The most logical choices are the Roamio location, or at the cable modem/router.

    Given the available options, the typically preferred modem/router location could only be recommended if a second coax run to the location were available, separate from the cable Internet run -- thus the open question. If the MoCA adapter is installed at the Roamio location, both the Roamio and MoCA adapter will need connections to the Ethernet LAN -- either via independent runs or by connecting both devices to a network switch which is connected back to the router's Ethernet LAN.

    As for what MoCA adapter to choose, there are a number of alternatives available. Seriously. >See here<. And your choice will hinge on your plans for MoCA, your budget, and desired simplicity vs. openness to a bit of DIY configuration. The cheapest solution would likely be buying a Verizon MI424-WR Rev.I router off eBay and down-configuring it into a simple MoCA 1.1 adapter w/ a built-in Gigabit Ethernet switch. The options aren't endless, but they are many.

    Some other possibilities, as examples...

    upload_2017-2-6_0-55-38.png upload_2017-2-6_13-9-0.png
    edit: As can be seen from the example diagrams, how the MoCA adapter would be connected to the coax lines is dependent on the MoCA adapter chosen, and user preference. If one opts for a MoCA adapter with a second coax port, labeled "RF/TV Out," to which the DVR could be connected, a splitter (or diplexer) wouldn't be needed -- unless preferred by the user. (If unused, cap a MoCA adapter's "RF/TV Out" port with a 75-ohm terminator.)


    Still to be addressed:
    • "PoE" MoCA filter
    • Amplifier
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2017
  10. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    16,026
    2,988
    Nov 25, 2003
    And you'd have been correct if TiVo had included MoCA bridging functionality in either the OTA-capable 4-tuner Roamios or the Mini. As just posted, you need to add a MoCA "access point" to your OTA coax lines to enable connectivity for any MoCA clients attached to those lines.

    As an aside...
    • The Mini can only connect as a MoCA client; it cannot bridge between MoCA/coax and Ethernet.
    • The only TiVo DVRs that can act as MoCA bridges, providing the ability to establish a MoCA network, are the 4-tuner Premieres, the 6-tuner Roamios and either BOLT series model.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2017
    halflifecrysis likes this.
  11. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    16,026
    2,988
    Nov 25, 2003
    Ok, thanks; so Roamio location for the MoCA adapter it is...!
     
    halflifecrysis likes this.
  12. halflifecrysis

    halflifecrysis New Member

    12
    2
    Feb 4, 2017
    Okay, there would be no problem with a switch at the Romeo. Actually I planned on it anyway because I was wanting to provide at least the Romeo, an Android box (needed for AMC and a few other channels) and probably a wifi range extender Ethernet. So if it was a 4 port switch I'd have a port left and that would put this adapter on the network.

    So I've seen these $80.00 moca adapters on Amazon, I didn't quite realize I'd need one UNTIL NOW.

    So I'm assuming Im using some type of "send/receive" splitter/filter off the OTA wall plate?
     
  13. halflifecrysis

    halflifecrysis New Member

    12
    2
    Feb 4, 2017
    The above was posted as you replied.
     
  14. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    16,026
    2,988
    Nov 25, 2003
    As you work on whittling down your options, keep in mind:
    • 4-tuner Roamio network interface is Fast Ethernet (100 Mbps)
    • Mini MoCA interface is MoCA 1.1
    • Mini Ethernet interface is Fast Ethernet
     
  15. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    16,026
    2,988
    Nov 25, 2003
    I believe both of these concerns were addressed in the latter portion of my earlier post, >here<. Let me know if not.

    p.s. Oh, one thing I didn't cover, related to your second question, is that the splitter (or diplexer) feeding the MoCA adapter and Roamio wouldn't be needed if you opted for a MoCA adapter with a second coax port, labeled "RF/TV Out," to which the Roamio could be connected. For example:

    upload_2017-2-6_13-6-22.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2017
  16. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    16,026
    2,988
    Nov 25, 2003
    FYI... links to various MoCA-friendly products or components that you may require...

    Xx#moca #mocaparts
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
    el-such-n-such likes this.
  17. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    16,026
    2,988
    Nov 25, 2003
    Re: "PoE" MoCA filter

    You'll want to get a "PoE" MoCA filter (e.g.) installed on the coax line heading to your antenna, to prevent MoCA signals from emanating from your antenna and to more efficiently reflect the MoCA signals back onto your coax lines, improving your MoCA network performance. This filter would typically be installed on the input to the first split encountered by the coax line coming from the antenna. More info on "PoE" MoCA filters >here<.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
    VW Man and halflifecrysis like this.
  18. halflifecrysis

    halflifecrysis New Member

    12
    2
    Feb 4, 2017
    Okay so let me make sure I'm on the same page with you. Still talking about Mini #2 in the office scenario for the most part.

    #1 I can pick up a switch like this to split up my network signal at the living room TV.

    Amazon.com: NETGEAR GS105NA Prosafe 5-Port Gigabit Switch: Computers & Accessories

    #2 Grab something like this Mocha bridge kit here > Amazon.com: Actiontec Ethernet over Coax Adapter Kit for Homes without MoCA Routers: Electronics

    One moca box in the living room at the Romeo looped back into the Ethernet network. The moca box at the Romeo I will be looping my OTO signal through it (pass through). The one in the office I will be inputting the "coax OTA signal" (carrying moca signal) INTO the moca box, then jumping to the mini with an Ethernet, to the TV HDMI. I will not use the output coax tab on box 2 (unless I want it to go to the input on the tv hanging on the wall for live OTA signals).

    Take this all one step further. All my new coax lines are in the garage laying on the floor (have not closed on the house yet). I can have my OTA antenna guy split it up this way.

    Antenna >> AMP >> 2 splitters > One 4 way splitter (maybe amplified) sending OTA only to 4 locations in my home & then > One 2 channel splitter (maybe or maybe not amplified) sending only OTA to my living room and my office on a closed circuit so to speak because on the 2 channel splitter, on it's input port I can put one of these to keep the Mocha signal to those 2 outlets only. Antenna in, but no moca out.

    Amazon.com: Filter, MoCA "POE" for Cable TV & OTA coaxial networks ONLY: Home Audio & Theater

    Do I finally understand? Please say yes hahaha.
     
  19. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    16,026
    2,988
    Nov 25, 2003
    Re: amplifier

    Amplifiers can be problematic for MoCA signals, often blocking or severely weakening MoCA signals between the amplfier ports. Ideally, any required amplification would happen upstream from your MoCA coax segment, perhaps using an in-line amplifier prior to any splits of the antenna coax line -- allowing insertion of a "PoE" MoCA filter on the input of the initial splitter to isolate the MoCA signals from the amp circuitry. For example:

    MoCA w inline drop-amp.jpg
    This is effectively what basic "MoCA amplifiers" with a built-in MoCA filter are doing... albeit within a single device (e.g.).

    NOTE: "MoCA bypass amplifiers" designed for cable installations are slightly different animals, providing a bypass path to route the MoCA signal between the unamplified modem port and the other output ports (e.g.).​

    See also >this parallel thread discussion<, posts 3-9, for additional options and background.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2017
  20. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    16,026
    2,988
    Nov 25, 2003
    Ah-ha!, that explains why you were looking at the 2-pack.

    The Mini has MoCA connectivity built-in...
    ... and so doesn't need the assistance of a standalone MoCA adapter to connect to an established MoCA network. You'll just configure the Mini via the 'Change Network Settings' dialog to "Connect using MoCA" --- once you've established the MoCA network via a MoCA adapter at the Roamio location.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2017

Share This Page

spam firewall

Advertisements