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Roamio OTA and Mini MoCA Connection

Discussion in 'TiVo Roamio DVRs' started by curt0528, Nov 2, 2018.

  1. Nov 2, 2018 #1 of 22
    curt0528

    curt0528 New Member

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    Thanks for your help, am new to this forum and TiVO. I have an OTA Roamio, connected to the antenna and the network connection is wireless. I need to connect a Mini in the basement. I have spent a couple of days researching as I generally try and find the answer myself rather than pester others, but alas, I have located conflicting information and would like to get accurate info to go forward. I am also sure that my initial "simple" question will lead to others depending on the answer. I have attached a diagram for clarity. The simple first question is can I attach a single MoCA bridge as in the diagram, OR does the bridge need to connect at the router? ( am guessing router ), the followup is in either case with the mini MoCA attached, will I experience issues with a wireless ethernet connection to the Roamio? The Issue I have to deal with is that each of the grey areas in the diag are "rooms" I cannot add physical cables ( coax or cat5 ) as the house is a multilevel nightmare.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Nov 2, 2018 #2 of 22
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Thanks for the diagram; they make troubleshooting easier.

    Your design might have worked if the Roamio OTA could have both its Ethernet and Wireless interfaces active simultaneously, and bridge between them; unfortunately, that's not the case. Further, in answer to your latter question, both the Mini and its host DVR officially require wired Ethernet or MoCA connections for the whole home setup. Plus, even if you were to opt for a TiVo-unsupported wireless connection for the Roamio OTA, per experienced TCFer @JoeKustra, the 4-tuner Roamio's built-in wireless is insufficient for streaming to a Mini; you would need to use a separate wireless bridge to provide the Roamio OTA with a wireless connection ... which, once a wireless bridge is available at the Roamio OTA location, *would* allow a solution similar to your suggestion.

    Something like the following should have gotten the job done, primarily because the heavy lifting of TiVo-to-TiVo traffic would be occurring via the wired MoCA connection between the Roamio OTA's MoCA adapter and the Mini. The wireless bridge's connection to the router would only need to handle the lighter, more resilient TiVo service connection and Internet streaming traffic.

    curt0528f MoCA alt1.png

    NOTE: "PoE" MoCA filter was moved to input of the 2-way splitter to improve the performance boost provided by the filter.​

    But, getting back on track, wireless shouldn't need to be a part of your setup; you should be able to have a wired connection to each TiVo box, provided the necessary coax connections are available ... along with a couple MoCA adapters.
     
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  3. Nov 2, 2018 #3 of 22
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    To your questions...
    Because the Roamio OTA lacks any built-in MoCA functionality, and because of the above-mentioned wireless/bridging limitations of the Roamio OTA, you will need a MoCA adapter BOTH at the Roamio OTA location *and* and the modem/router location. The MoCA adapter at the modem/router location acts as the bridge between the router's Ethernet LAN and the coax/MoCA segment. The MoCA adapter at the Roamio OTA will be needed simply as a network adapter for the Roamio OTA, to provide it with a MoCA client connection ... unlike the Mini which has the built-in capability to act as a MoCA client.

    The issue you face, though, is how to get a MoCA signal from the modem/router location to both the Mini and Roamio OTA locations ... with the roadblock being that cable and OTA antenna signals cannot share the same coax plant.

    To find that path, some questions...
    • Do the grey boxes represent distinct rooms/locations where connections and devices within the same gray box are co-located?
    • Do you have any other coax runs, not currently depicted, running from the central junction to either the Roamio OTA or modem/router location?
    • Does the antenna coax line run near, at any point, the coax lines connecting to the modem/router location?

    (An additional coax run to either location would allow for a simpler setup. In the absence of this additional run, a diplexer at the central junction could be used to slip the MoCA signal between the OTA & cable coax segments.)
     
  4. Nov 2, 2018 #4 of 22
    curt0528

    curt0528 New Member

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    Thank You for the assistance

    To answer your questions ( and statement ), the grey boxes are distinct locations, there are no other runs going to the router or Roamio locations, and both the Antenna and ISP cables enter the house in a utility closet with couplers before heading to the Roamio and ISP Modem. Running another cable is out of the question, the ONLY possibility which I would prefer to avoid, would be to get up in the attic and locate the Coax going to an upstairs bedroom, pull it back up into the attic, and drop it down to the router, my assumption is the other end of this cable would be in the same utility closet,, but IMO, this would be a hail mary plan... But for clarity, would the Network Bridge plan in your diagram work, or is it not desirable? I have zero patience for stuff that works poorly... :)
     
  5. Nov 2, 2018 #5 of 22
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    It *would* work ... but it is also not desirable, given that you can do a fully-wired MoCA setup. That post was intended to explain the limitations of the Roamio OTA, but also to let you know that your research had you very close to a workable solution, if only the Roamio OTA were a bit more capable.

    No worries. Since the OTA and cable modem runs do have a point of intersection, you'll be able to implement a simple workaround using an antenna satellite diplexer, as alluded to at the end of my previous post.

    But one more question before throwing a MoCA connection suggestion your way.

    Where's the splitter located? Is it also in the utility closet, though depicted outside of it? (And so all 3 coax runs to the rooms emanate from the wiring closet?)

    edit: p.s. Oh, a few more ...
    • Have you acquired any MoCA adapters, yet? If so, what model? Are you shooting for budget or performance?
    • Do you have any other Ethernet-connectable devices at the Roamio OTA or Mini locations that would also benefit from a wired network connection (e.g. TV, gaming console, streaming box)?
    • Do you have a preference for the bandwidth between the router, Roamio and Mini locations?
    • What are your spec'd Internet download/upload rates?
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  6. Nov 2, 2018 #6 of 22
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    In case I get hit by a bus, you'll be looking to do something similar to the following (though likely not exactly the same; depends on answers to previous questions)...

    OTA-CableInternet-MoCA.jpg
    edit: p.s. Your setup appears similar to another recent thread, starting >here<. (posts 117-128 should paint a sufficient picture)
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  7. Nov 2, 2018 #7 of 22
    curt0528

    curt0528 New Member

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    THAT is the picture I found yesterday that confused me,, could not locate it again,, but as I see it the ISP and Antenna signals are on the same cable between the diplexer and the roamio Moca adapter? Possibly something about the diplexer that I do not understand. BUT am still getting cobwebs out of my hair as a result of my last "hail Mary" cable thought, it made me apply that logic in the basement and am 85% sure that with a remote control car and a flashlight ( done this before ) I can have a separate coax to the Roamio Antenna !! I think this simplifies everything doesn't it? You are correct that the splitter in my diagram is actually in the Utility closet. I have revised my drawing, if you see a better/easier way please adjust it,, also I have not placed the MoCA Bridge for the connection to the router, figured you knew better how to connect it. Last question answered is that I have purchased NOTHING yet,, waiting for a viable plan and suggestions from knowledgeable people like yourself. I certainly value your time and assistance.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Nov 2, 2018 #8 of 22
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Yes, a separate, direct coax run for the antenna is ideal/preferred.

    As for the revised diagram with a dedicated antenna coax run, it looks good aside from the mentioned omission. How you would connect the MoCA adapter at the modem/router depends on the MoCA adapter selected. If the MoCA adapter has a RF pass-through port, the modem can be connected via this port; absent a RF pass-through port on the MoCA adapter, a 2-way splitter (MoCA-compatible; e.g.) would be required to connect both the modem and MoCA adapter to the coax outlet. The following diagram depicts the MoCA adapter connection options for a Roamio/BOLT OTA, but all but the diplexer option would also apply for a cable gatteway (the diplexer example could also work depending on the frequencies in-use by the provider for downstream/upstream channels, but it's more bother than it's worth, imo, since the provider can alter the channels/frequencies used at any time):

    MoCA adapter pass-through.png

    Also, you'd probably benefit from using an unbalanced 3-way splitter (e.g.) as your main splitter, with the cable modem run connected to the low-loss output, to preserve signal strength delivered to the modem.

    If you are unable to run the additional coax line, then the diplexer workaround would work just fine (as it is for a number of others), and can be discussed if/when it becomes necessary.


    edit: updated with MoCA adapter connection options diagram; also possible fix for lost attachment:

    curt revised.png
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
  9. Nov 3, 2018 #9 of 22
    curt0528

    curt0528 New Member

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    All cable runs complete, awaiting MoCA splitters and MoCA bridges, I am inclined to order new splitters as the ones I have do not say MoCA and the freq range tops at 1000 MHz,, also ordering the Bridges and would welcome any suggestions to what works best. I actually found a POE filter attached to one of the unused coax cables ( RLP-1002 ). Initial research leads me to a motorola bridge ( mm1000 ) for $60 ea, does that sound right? It is really great to have a "logical voice of reason" for this, thanks for the help.
     
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  10. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Good to hear; glad the add'l coax run was doable.

    Re: MoCA adapters, yes, the Motorola MM1000 is the best value for top performance, has a RF pass-through port simplifying setup, and I believe each one includes a "PoE" MoCA filter; but the MM1000 may be overkill if all you're looking to do is establish a wired network connection for just the Roamio OTA and Mini*. The earlier questions ...
    ... to which I'd add:
    • What version is your Mini ... v1/A92, v2/A93 or VOX/A95 ?
    ... were intended to help ferret out whether you needed or would benefit from a higher performance adapter, such as the MM1000 ... or could get away with a $13 WCB3000N (MoCA 1.1).

    WCB3000N pros:
    • cost
    • 2 GigE ports
    • wireless access point (potential, if wifi dead zones near remote location, or simply if co-located wireless devices could connect through this adapter and conserve main access point bandwidth for other devices)
    WCB3000N cons:
    • only MoCA 1.1 (so 170 Mbps throughput max)
    • no coax RF pass-through port
    • requires configuration to disable its wireless antennae
    • bulkier

    * NOTE: Keep in mind that the Roamio OTA is limited by its Fast Ethernet port (100 Mbps), and a v1/v2 Mini to either MoCA 1.1 (170 Mbps) or Fast Ethernet (100 Mbps). A Mini VOX has standard MoCA 2.0 (400 Mbps) and Gigabit Ethernet (1000 Mbps) interfaces.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
  11. curt0528

    curt0528 New Member

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    My Mini is not a VOX ( pretty sure ) model # is TCDA93000,, don't need to buy better speed than what the Mini can use... or the Roamio output,, would need a moCA splitter at the ISP modem,, if my Mini does not get better performance with the MM1000, I go with the WCB3000N,, sound right?
     
  12. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    A93 = Mini v2; so not VOX. And so, correct, the WCB3000N is sufficient for the Mini and Roamio OTA MoCA connections ... and a much cheaper solution. ($26 for 2 ... though you'd also need to factor-in the additional splitter and coax costs, however minor, for a true cost comparison.)

    Preferred parts >here<; no opinion implied IRT source, aside from WCB3000N from Amazon.

    edit: p.s. See this TCF post or the Amazon review source for instructions on disabling wireless in the WCB3000N. (h/t @JLV03, @kpeters59)
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
  13. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    FYI... Depending on the model of your cable modem, you may find that it requires a MoCA filter installed on its input to protect it from MoCA signals. This was the case with some older pre-MoCA modems, and has begun cropping-up, again, as DOCSIS 3.1 modems are deployed, owing to DOCSIS 3.1 and MoCA sharing operational frequencies.

    e.g.
    curt revised w WCB3000N.png

    The alternative to using a protective/prophylactic MoCA filter on the modem's input port is to have a dedicated coax run to the modem, keeping the modem coax entirely isolated from the MoCA signals. This alternative becomes a requirement if the cable provider is using DOCSIS 3.1 frequencies above 1002 MHz for Internet downstream/upstream channels, since a MoCA filter on the modem's input port would block these frequencies.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
  14. JoeKustra

    JoeKustra in the other Alabama TCF Club

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    Ashland, PA...
    If you have a SB6183 or SB8200 they have a built-in spectrum analyzer. It doesn't work with IE11. You will need Chrome or Edge. It has an IP address of 192.168.100.1:8080 which will show you the frequencies on your cable. I have DC3.1 and this is my feed:
    sb8200.jpg
    Hope this helps.

    Default username: admin. Default password: password.
     
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  15. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Nice.
     
  16. curt0528

    curt0528 New Member

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    wow,, you guys have forgotten more about this stuff than I will ever know... my modem is a SB6190, DOCSIS 3.0,, so I should not have to deal with that... Thanks again.
     
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  17. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Per this specs sheet for the SB6190, the SB6190 has an embedded "MoCA immunity filter" -- basically what was being recommended but built-in. This was the interim solution, between the pre-MoCA modems and the new DOCSIS 3.1 modems. (I believe many/most of the Arris SB61xx series have the built-in MoCA filter.)
     
  18. curt0528

    curt0528 New Member

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    Just because we thought this was "in the bag",, the WCB3000Ns showed up today,, went to disable the wireless and can not get into the admin setup, browser says "site can't be reached,, tried both methods to connect ( 192.168.99.254, and the Http:// ),, also called actiontec support and recorded message says "if you bought this from amazon it is not warranted or supported",, 3 questions,, 1) have you ever heard this? 2) do I have to disable the wireless for this to work?, 3) should I just return these and get something that works without drama? BTW I also tried defaulting to factory parameters, I feel like these have been tweaked by a cable company or something...
     
  19. kpeters59

    kpeters59 Well-Known Member

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    If you connect it to your router, it will get an IP Address via DHCP. Access setup at that address.

    -KP

    Edit:

    Don't forget this:

    Note: My firmware is v0.16.8.4.

    I don't believe this device is supposed to be very consumer friendly, however I design software so it's okay for me. If you have too many technical questions about the product, then it might not be for you. My rating is based on these expectations, two 1-Gbps ports, dual-band wifi, and the low price to get at MoCA 1.1.

    The radio can be turned off, the option to do so is hidden in the HTML of the "Basic Setup Page", just unhide it to show the radio-buttons, make the change, and click "apply" button as usual.

    If you use the Chrome Browser, right click on header for each wireless band and choose "inspect" to get at the HTML. Clear out "display:none".

    Secondly this device is not KRACK vulnerable according to Actiontec's public support forum.

    Actiontec Single Dual-Band Wireless Network Extender and Ethernet Over Coax Adapter (WCB3000N)
    [​IMG]

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FKTMWDE
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2018
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  20. curt0528

    curt0528 New Member

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    awesome,, both wcb3000s have radios off,, do I need to do any setup or configuration for the MoCA network? I am guessing no as all of my browsing has not turned anything up,, but thought I would ask.
     

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