[rant] I messed up and now Tivo is ripping me off

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by eisenb11, Aug 1, 2008.

  1. gastrof

    gastrof Hubcaps r in fashion

    7,486
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    Oct 31, 2003
    Potato and pen.

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    Don't know if you're saying this to the OP or someone else, but the facts are the OP was in the middle of a FREE YEAR and told them to cut off service to that machine.

    TiVo lost NOTHING, and agreed to shut off service.

    They didn't do it.

    Several months later, when the free year was up, they began billing for service on a machine they'd agreed to "disconnect"...

    A machine they'd been told to DISCONNECT several months earlier and had agreed to.

    It's fraud. Makes no difference if some CSR just plain goofed. Charging something to someone's credit card for a service they've said they don't want any more is FRAUD.

    Worse, since they'd been told to stop the service months earlier and there hadn't BEEN any billing for a year, this means TiVo actually BEGAN charging the card for the service...

    Service they'd already been told "I don't want".
     
  2. gastrof

    gastrof Hubcaps r in fashion

    7,486
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    Oct 31, 2003
    Potato and pen.

    Might want to double check that. In the past, that's not always been the case, and in some places you HAD to tell the other party. The law would vary from one state to another.

    Has that changed nation-wide?
     
  3. eisenb11

    eisenb11 Member

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    Redondo...
    Well said, this is exactly what happenned. It's pretty crazy! lol
     
  4. Grey Griffin

    Grey Griffin Member

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    Tulsa, OK
    I'm very sure that it is not illegal to record the conversation. I worked in insurance claims for over 10 years, we had to advise a customer if we (the company) were making recordings. Customers also would record conversations and never tell us. The legal department researched it and there is no law against a private citizen recording a phone conversation.

    What could be illegal is what you try to use that recording for later but not making the recording itself. Again, the courts usually won't allow recordings except under certain conditions, but there is a difference between something being inadmissable and being illegal.
     
  5. samo

    samo New Member

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    Oct 7, 1999
    Littleton,...

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    I use this device http://www.diguniverse.com/TELECOM/TELEPHONE-SYSTEM-ADD-ONS/TR-70.html
    As for legality of recording conversation, I don't know laws of other states, but in Colorado only one party in conversation has to know that recording takes place (you can not record somebody else's conversation if you are not part of it)
     
  6. ToddNeedsTiVo

    ToddNeedsTiVo Shampoo is not toxic

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    Ankeny, IA
    I would think a nice, friendly "this call may be monitored or recorded for quality assurance" when the rep comes on the line next time ought to suffice for notification.
     
  7. jhimmel

    jhimmel Member

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    Dec 27, 2002
    That is exactly what I was told here in NY. At least one party must be aware. You can record your own conversations (you are the aware party), but you can NOT use recording devices to monitor conversations you are not part of without notification (or a warrant).

    Interestingly enough, video surveillance is much less restrictive. I have video surveillance camera's all around my property. They can record to my hearts content. Technically, I'm not allowed to mic 'em and record the audio.
     
  8. jjberger2134

    jjberger2134 Member

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    Nov 19, 2002
    I agree with you, you are getting screwed by TiVo. However, I was just trying to point out that Citibank will most likely not help you to the extent that you need help based on the Terms and Conditions of their credit cards.

    As far as TiVo goes, yes they should recognize their error (which they have done) and fix the error (which they have not done, yet). However, I was also trying to point out that you have some responsibility here too, since it took you almost a year to recognize the error. What if it took you 2, 3, or 4 years to realize the charges on the card? At what point does the responsibility of charges on your card become your fault for not realizing what happened.

    Again, in this case, my opinion is TiVo should help you here.
     
  9. jhimmel

    jhimmel Member

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    Dec 27, 2002
    Okay, here is the info -

    Federal law allows recording of phone calls and other electronic communications with the consent of at least one party to the call. A majority of the states and territories have adopted wiretapping statutes based on the federal law, although most also have extended the law to cover in-person conversations. Thirty-eight states and the District of Columbia permit individuals to record conversations to which they are a party without informing the other parties that they are doing so. These laws are referred to as "one-party consent" statutes, and as long as you are a party to the conversation, it is legal for you to record it. (Nevada also has a one-party consent statute, but the state Supreme Court has interpreted it as an all-party rule.)

    Twelve states require, under most circumstances, the consent of all parties to a conversation. Those jurisdictions are California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington. Be aware that you will sometimes hear these referred to inaccurately as "two-party consent" laws. If there are more than two people involved in the conversation, all must consent to the taping.

    Regardless of the state, it is almost always illegal to record a conversation to which you are not a party, do not have consent to tape, and could not naturally overhear.

    This, and more state by state info, available here -
    http://www.rcfp.org/taping/

    Hope that helps.

    Jim H.
     
  10. jim_h

    jim_h New Member

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    May 6, 2008
    I don't understand this "work it out with Tivo" stuff. They billed you in error and they owe you that money. The only point of negotiation might be whether they owe you interest on it, and at what rate.

    I don't agree that you had any responsibility to catch this error. It would have been nice if you had, but that's it. Tivo is trying to play this like an auto accident where both parties accept some degree of fault and settle, even if the truth is that one driver simply ran a red light.

    They probably made this mistake on a whole bunch of accounts and are hoping to minimize their losses by pressuring these (former) customers to settle for a reduced amount to avoid a hassle.
     
  11. gastrof

    gastrof Hubcaps r in fashion

    7,486
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    Oct 31, 2003
    Potato and pen.
    Never.

    TiVo had no authority to bill ANYTHING to that card. They did so nonetheless.

    That's ILLEGAL.

    Don't try to blame the victim.
     
  12. RoyK

    RoyK New Member

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    Oct 22, 2004
    SW VA
    I suggest you send TiVo a letter (certified mail) explaining the situation, what you were told, when, and by whom and demanding a refund of your payments (with interest). Then, if the situation isn't promptly resolved, file a small claims suit.

    This is a civil matter unless you can prove intentional fraud which I don't believe you can.
     
  13. samo

    samo New Member

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    Littleton,...
    I would reserve small claims for the last resort. Credit Card company will issue chargeback just based on your claim. TiVo will have to explain to the bank (in writing) why they charged the credit card in a first place. Consumer will receive this reply to comment on and to provide more information if needed. Unless Tivo are plane crooks, they would not make a false statements that customer never cancelled the service. But if they do, tape of the conversation will become handy. It may be not admissible in a court, but will be sufficient for the bank.
     
  14. seanembry

    seanembry New Member

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    Aug 2, 2008
    The key here is that Tivo admitted to accepting the cancel, then not honoring it. In law enforcement circles, this is called "Wire Fraud".

    Check with your state Attorny General's consumer protection unit. In general, when things like this happen, it's an indication that two people crusked up at the same time. You, for not policing your credit card bills better, and Tivo for not doing as they said they would.

    Were I you, I'd simply drop the matter past reporting it to the BBB and the State AG. And I'd make time to review the charges on my credit card every month.
     
  15. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    NJ
    I have a pile of comments-

    fraud on tivo's part- I think not- a stupid error from incompetence- yes.

    Illegal- don't think so- immoral- probably. But there's plenty of immoral things people and businesses do that aren't illegal.

    Legally the OP probably only has rights to dispute the 3-4 last charges with the card company per the terms- which might be enforced by visa and mastercard not the member banks. The merchant has to have some reasonable assurance that they aren't going to get harassed with charge-backs years down the road. I assume the MC and Visa rules stipulate the 3 month thing for all parties. (could be wrong but that's what i suspect). For those that aren't vendors- chargebacks can play major havoc on a business- so i seem to recall there is a timeframe that is written in stone.

    I wouldn't bash the OP or blame the victim- but even they achowledge they should have paid more attention to the bills. The front line CSR probably only has the abiluty to refund 3 months and I'm not sure i would give front line outsourced CSR's the abiliuty to do any more than that myself. So now since it went on so long some other system needs to be used to correct it. So if it takes more then one phone call to fix I dont blame tivo.

    All that said- i think it's very likely that when someone with a brain and authority at tivo catches this- they will fix it right up and there will be no need to go to the credit card, small claims court, or the BBB.

    Also- not sure why so many dissing the BBB. For some mom and pop I think it could be a waste but for a large company it can frequently get results. I had problems with IBM/Lenovo once- it wasn't even a loss of money sort of thing- just they were treating a group of customers like crap. I complained through the bbb website and a day or 2 later some vp of sucking up called me and offered me some significantly valued accessories to go along with an apology and a fix to the poor treatment to resolve the situation. Can't say if tivo would act the same, but i do think larger public company's do care about what bbb says.

    So if it got that far- the BBB is a simpler way I think than credit card or court- at worst it only takes a few days to see if that ges things fixed. In fact- quick search at bbb site shows 130+ complaints about tivo in the past year and quick glance looks like only 2 unresolved- all the rest were resolved or the bbb decided that tivo made a reasonable effort to resolve the complaint.- so bitching to the bbb would appear to be a much cheaper and simpler way to resolve things.
     
  16. eisenb11

    eisenb11 Member

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    Redondo...
    Thanks for the updates.

    I sent an email to their PR department this morning. I'm going to give them a little bit (till Friday) before I start pursuing outside influences.

    As for taping of the call, it appears that I'm in one of the states listed where all parties must have consent - California. I'm pretty sure CS is trained to hang up they're being told a call will be taped, but I could be wrong on that matter.

    I also sent a PM to Pony on Friday, but I haven't heard back from him yet. Too bad there's no way to get ahold of Tivo Shannon! :D
     
  17. ThreeSoFar'sBro

    ThreeSoFar'sBro Sports Nut

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    Oct 10, 2004
    Macomb Twp., MI
    People should be careful telling others on this board that things are or are not illegal. IANAL, but I did find the following:

    Cal. Penal Code ยงยง 631, 632: It is a crime in California to intercept or eavesdrop upon any confidential communication, including a telephone call or wire communication, without the consent of all parties.

    It is also a crime to disclose information obtained from such an interception. A first offense is punishable by a fine of up to $2,500 and imprisonment for no more than one year. Subsequent offenses carry a maximum fine of $10,000 and jail sentence of up to one year.


    I have also heard on this board, a way of saying you're recording is to joke about "this call may be recorded." Search on this board to find the link on how to do this.

    I, too, am a victim of this EXACT scenario. I was told by a CSR that they'd delete the charges, and stop charging. They still are. I feel I'm in for a long fight on this one.
     
  18. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    Jan 10, 2002
    NJ
    IANL either-

    but I'm not so sure that billing errors count as wire fraud either.
     
  19. jim_h

    jim_h New Member

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    May 6, 2008
    If merchants weren't liable for the full amount of erroneous charges like this, an unethical merchant could simply never honor the first request to cancel a monthly charge. He'd know that if the customer didn't catch the error, and a year went by, he could keep 2/3 of the money.
     
  20. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

    7,308
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    Jan 10, 2002
    NJ
    I believe if you let your credit card company know that a particular monthly charge is no longer authorized they will deny it when tivo tries again.

    Also- per above- maybe the BBB is a good idea of how to escalate with minimal effort. Seems tivo responds to the BBB almost all the time- and I think the bbb rules require a response pretty soon- like a couple days. You can complain right on their website.
     

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