PSA: TiVo Changes - May 2018 User Agreement & Privacy Policy Update - May 2018

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by mmf01, May 12, 2018.

  1. May 14, 2018 #61 of 146
    gfweiss

    gfweiss Member

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    The notice ends by saying that using your device after May 18th signifies acceptance of the new agreement. Well, I sure don't agree to the terms, but since my LTS is already paid for what rational choice do I have other than to continue using my TiVo if I want to watch TV?

    I missed out on last years opportunity to transfer my S2 LT (in service since 2004) to a new Bolt for $99, but I've been patiently waiting, hoping for the offer to come back again. I guess I can kiss that idea goodbye now and expect TiVo to simply discontinue the S2 in the near future. Any comments?
     
  2. May 14, 2018 #62 of 146
    just4tivo

    just4tivo Active Member

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    Since you do not agree to the new TOS email to disputenotice@tivo.com and in the subject line put
    "Notice of Dispute" and include your name , address, phone, and TiVo account.

    Tell them you don't agree with the new TOS and want the money you originally paid refunded since they have breached the original contract you had with TiVo when you bought your STB and paid for Lifetime Service.

    That will get you a pretty prompt reply and a phone call from someone in the executive department... well at least it used to.
     
  3. May 14, 2018 #63 of 146
    ah30k

    ah30k Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I have a comment... your premise has zero basis in fact and you're getting yourself worked up either out of irrational fear or just to gin up some excitement.
     
  4. May 14, 2018 #64 of 146
    ah30k

    ah30k Well-Known Member

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    We've already established that TiVo can change the ToS at will without the consumer consent (not a breach at all) so if you don't agree you can cease using it and maybe sell it. You probably have a 0.000% chance of getting any money back and any attempt to do so is a waste of time.
     
  5. May 14, 2018 #65 of 146
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    Why do you think you would have to kiss that idea goodbye? The old ToS was similar. So they could still have a special to move people off older boxes and transfer lifetime. Just like they have in the past. Nothing has really changed.
     
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  6. May 15, 2018 #66 of 146
    Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    I guess I see a statement saying, "lifetime is lifetime" is a guarantee. But I also agree that if push came to shove in this hypothetical world that TiVo_Ted would not let occur ;) , TiVo likely would want to try to rely on the "we can change this agreement at any time and in any way we want" provision that you point to. It's just that I don't think that a court would allow TiVo to do so as to the term that forms the core basis for the agreement, lifetime service (and as opposed to for a subsidiary term, such as the removal of a subsidiary feature such as folder play from Hydra). If matters were otherwise, TiVo likewise could say, after a year (or, heck, after a month or a day), "well, Lifetime folks, Lifetime is now over," effectively rendering the Lifetime contract largely meaningless and an illusory contract, which the law and courts are disinclined to do.
    Yeah, I just don't agree that TiVo can do so, as to the core term at the center of the agreement. See above. ;)

     
  7. May 15, 2018 #67 of 146
    Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    And totally apart from the legalities involved, it can be a good marketing idea and goodwill generator.
     
  8. May 15, 2018 #68 of 146
    ej42137

    ej42137 Well-Known Member

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    There's a bunch of ex-customers in England and Australia that wish that were true.
     
  9. May 15, 2018 #69 of 146
    Diana Collins

    Diana Collins Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    I don't know about England (IIRC that was a TiVo direct market) but in Australia the boxes weren't sold and supported by TiVo but rather by a franchisee, so that is not really a precedent.

    Look, ever since the Rovi merger people have been looking for some nefarious motive for everything the company does. TiVo would like nothing better than to have their DVRs sell for peanuts and be able to provide free service. But, unfortunately, we live in the real world and there are costs for everything. TiVo is making moves to be a viable business over the long term. That includes clearer and more specific terms, as well as an examination of where they spend and receive value. We should all WANT them to make a healthy profit from their products - it is the best insurance that they will be able to support the equipment for the foreseeable future.
     
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  10. May 15, 2018 #70 of 146
    Diana Collins

    Diana Collins Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    The speculation on changes to data structure have to do with the database of recordings and guide data maintained by the software, not the disk structure. If they had made changes to the disk format none of the MFS tools would work.
     
  11. May 15, 2018 #71 of 146
    BobCamp1

    BobCamp1 Well-Known Member

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    I'm with you. Just because something is in a TOS doesn't mean that's the end of it. If parts of the TOS are not legal, are unclear, or they conflict with the service that was advertised, then those parts of the TOS are not binding. Not to mention the bad publicity it would generate.

    That's why it's now "all-in" and why Rovi even further clarified that in their recent TOS.

    For example, Rovi still has the "cannot modify or disassemble hardware" clause in their TOS which is illegal as written. You have the legal right to repair your Tivo yourself.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
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  12. May 15, 2018 #72 of 146
    GaryD9

    GaryD9 Member

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    You previously stated:
    That has nothing to do with the disk format (also known as the file system.) Remember that this is in reference to the burden of maintaining previous versions of the software. No one suggested that the file system changed. In fact, the irony is that it'd be easier to maintain multiple versions if only the file system changed, as that's usually abstracted in the kernel.

    On the other hand, if the higher level data structures (different database columns, values, etc) are vastly different, the burden to maintain multiple versions becomes greater. Then the code "closer" to the UI has to be different to retrieve, represent, react to, and store different data elements.

    Again, I'm not suggesting that TiVo won't maintain the different versions, or even claim to have any inside info on what might have changed between versions. You stated that "the core that does recording.... seems to be identical", and I'm stating that they might not be as identical as you're suggesting. Of course, all either of us can do is speculate at this point.

    (I also wonder if this data structure change might be part of why transferring of recordings no longer functions.)
     
  13. May 15, 2018 #73 of 146
    BobCamp1

    BobCamp1 Well-Known Member

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    That's yet another murky area. Generally speaking, you're incorrect. Whenever your MSO or cell phone carrier changes their TOS, if you dispute it you can immediately cancel the contract without an ETF and you can force them to unlock your phone.

    And if you prepaid for service (i.e. All-In), you are entitled to get a prorated refund. The question is how long is All-In service really good for. It's at least three years, maybe more like five?
     
  14. May 15, 2018 #74 of 146
    ah30k

    ah30k Well-Known Member

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    He's got an S2 unit from 2004 (18 years old). Since I am wrong, how much do you think he could get back?
     
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  15. May 15, 2018 #75 of 146
    TiVo_Ted

    TiVo_Ted Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for pointing this out Diana. Our intent here was to further clarify the definition for NEW all-in-plan purchases, not for prior purchases.
     
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  16. May 15, 2018 #76 of 146
    Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    I emphasize that this all is just academic speculation--there is no indication here that anything negative is happening (although, it did occur with the EOL'ing of Series 1 boxes, albeit for a technological reason--but, having said that, many consumers felt that TiVo handled that well and that they even came out ahead, in the end, given the age of the Series 1 boxes). But I don't know if the situation in those countries was the same as in the U.S. In the end, creditors often will suffer if a company goes out of business with outstanding obligations that are not going to be covered (and that's been a question with TiVo from day 1: would it be successful in these fast-changing times such that Lifetime would make $ sense).

    My only question here, prompted by others' posts, has been whether a company, as a legal matter, unilaterally can change contract terms after the fact in a fashion that changes the core essence of that contract, through the use of a "we may change terms" provision. Again, if that's the case and at the extreme, that would mean that a company selling a service contract for the Lifetime of an accompanying product could send out a letter, the month following the sale and upfront payment, saying, "Your Lifetime service contract now is only good for 2 months." I just don't know that such a revision to a contract's core provision would be upheld at court.

    Nor, of course, is TiVo doing that now.
     
  17. May 15, 2018 #77 of 146
    ggieseke

    ggieseke Well-Known Member

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    I have seen some indications very recently that Bolts on the latest version of Hydra can't auto-format drives correctly (even the factory drive). Not sure about Roamios, but at least I can test that scenario once I get off of my lazy butt and try it with my backup Pro.

    In both cases the MFS file system doesn't seem to have changed, but we may have to go back to TE3 to format a drive before switching back to Hydra if you're so inclined.
     
  18. May 15, 2018 #78 of 146
    Charles R

    Charles R Well-Known Member

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    My interpretation of the Lifetime agreement is based on TiVo not charging any additional fees "for the lifetime" of the device while in service. Not the device can be used for an unlimited period of time since the agreement allows them to stop said service (at any time). Strictly money not time related.

     
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  19. May 15, 2018 #79 of 146
    Furmaniac

    Furmaniac Active Member

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    I got TiVo for one reason: wishlists.
    Dish Network used to have Dish pass, a similar function, and they were sued by TiVo and lost. They paid Tivo $5 per subscriber (added to his bill) per month to TiVo to keep the service for several years.
    Today's Dish Hopper does not have the service, so TiVo is the only one that has Wishlists and it's such a great feature, that TiVo was worth it to me ... just for that!

    Now that we have Vox, you can say any movie or TV show from the past and make a bookmark, onepass or wishlist for it.
    The type-in search only looks at the current guide ... that's another reason to not only keep TiVo ... but to keep Hydra.
     
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  20. May 15, 2018 #80 of 146
    sfhub

    sfhub Well-Known Member

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    Might I suggest there is an easier more obvious way to clarify that. Simply add the line that all-in purchases prior to May 18 use the previous agreement.
     

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