PSA: TiVo Changes - May 2018 User Agreement & Privacy Policy Update - May 2018

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by mmf01, May 12, 2018.

  1. May 14, 2018 #41 of 146
    ah30k

    ah30k Well-Known Member

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    While nice for consumers, the accountants would freak out about the revenue recognition impacts to such a policy.
     
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  2. May 14, 2018 #42 of 146
    Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    And who knows how the landscape will change in X years? As an extreme example, what happens if a new form of compression is introduced (Half the file size! Twice the quality! Brought to you by PiedPiper!) that is incompatible with existing DVRs? Should TiVo be legally required to support a machine that can't work?
     
  3. May 14, 2018 #43 of 146
    BobCamp1

    BobCamp1 Well-Known Member

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    There is no reason *today*. But one can never say never. All one can say is that it's currently highly unlikely. And that's as good as we're going to get, so thank you.

    Although it is unlikely, I have seen companies renege on their promises dozens of times due to unforeseen circumstances.

    For example, if the numbers from Rovi's finance department take an unexpectedly bad turn, and Rovi had to lay off a bunch of engineers as a result, then Rovi wouldn't have enough resources to support both TE3 and TE4. TE3 could simply not be updated anymore, which would be fine. Unless something unexpectedly came up that absolutely had to be fixed. Then the Tivos would all have to be upgraded to TE4 and those that couldn't would probably be EOLed.
     
  4. May 14, 2018 #44 of 146
    Old Hickory

    Old Hickory Active Member

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    Yup. But where's the fun in that?
     
  5. May 14, 2018 #45 of 146
    BobCamp1

    BobCamp1 Well-Known Member

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    There's a big difference between upgrading a device to support new features and killing off a perfectly working device for business reasons. I do not expect my Bolt to support ATSC 3.0. I do expect it to support ATSC 1.0 until it dies. I do not expect that a future software upgrade would disable ATSC 1.0 functionality.
     
  6. May 14, 2018 #46 of 146
    BobCamp1

    BobCamp1 Well-Known Member

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    That's misleading. The question was, was Rovi obligated to compensate customers for violating their own TOS when they discontinued the S1? That was murky, which is why Rovi offered that deal to active users of those boxes. I no longer expect such offers from Rovi when they discontinue the S2, S3, and Premieres sometime next year. :D
     
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  7. May 14, 2018 #47 of 146
    Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, you're probably right that it's not murky: I think it likely that TiVo doesn't have the right to prematurely turn off Lifetime service, in the face of an initial contract that guaranteed it. And this isn't based on "armchair legal analysis" but an understanding of contract law and the concepts of legal consideration and illusory contracts. ;)
     
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  8. May 14, 2018 #48 of 146
    ah30k

    ah30k Well-Known Member

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    Please please please point me to where TiVo guaranteed it.
     
  9. May 14, 2018 #49 of 146
    Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    Check the user agreement: for the box's (not your) lifetime. Hence, the name of the service. Not the "you pay us a boatload of money for service for the lifetime of your box but oh, wait, we can stop service anytime we want" service. ;)
     
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  10. May 14, 2018 #50 of 146
    ah30k

    ah30k Well-Known Member

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    So you can't point me to where TiVo guaranteed anything. Figured.

    You don't need to actually go look for it, but I'm going to call out statements that aren't true. TiVo never guaranteed what you are claiming.
     
  11. May 14, 2018 #51 of 146
    foghorn2

    foghorn2 Well-Known Member

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    Some of you guys gals are really silly arguing about nothing. I guess thats what the internet if for arguing and streaming crap
     
  12. May 14, 2018 #52 of 146
    ah30k

    ah30k Well-Known Member

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    and calling for class action law suits.
     
  13. May 14, 2018 #53 of 146
    Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I am busy heading out the door and couldn't look up the user agreement for you--I thought you could. Your link and the language (emphasis added, to point out the specific language):

    https://www.tivo.com/buytivo/popups/popup_servicePlans.html
    And now, lest you post something and don't hear back from me right now and want to "call me out" for that, I'm out the door (and now late, lol). ;)
     
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  14. May 14, 2018 #54 of 146
    ah30k

    ah30k Well-Known Member

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    I don't see any guarantee there. Especially given that four lines below your quote is this
    Maybe we just have different ideas of what a guarantee is.
     
  15. May 14, 2018 #55 of 146
    Diana Collins

    Diana Collins Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    Let me jump in here, as a software product manager for a data management product used by very large corporations:

    It is not difficult to support two different versions of software, particularly when they perform the same functions. As far as I can see, both TE3 and TE4 are built on top of the same core DVR code. The core that does recording, plays back recordings, supports trick-play, etc. seems identical in both UXs. SO, in large part, that code gets maintained no matter what happens. It is just higher level UI code that differs. Let me give you a similar example from my own products:

    Several years ago, we contracted with a supplier of data matching code (to allow two sources of data to be correlated). After years of successful integration with our product, the vendor was acquired and quadrupled our annual license fee. So, we removed that vendor's product and replaced it with a different matching engine. The point is that we have MANY customer using the old code. If they have a bug, we fix it. But no new features go into that code. So if a customer wants the ability to, say, match on a date range, then they need to upgrade to the newer matching engine. However, we ship both engines, but only turn on the old engine for customer that had licensed it. This is a minor issue in terms of developer load...I'd say we spend less than 1% of the aggregate developer resources we have supporting the older software.

    The situation is similar for Encore/TE3 and Hydra/TE4 users. TE3 will continue to function the way it does today. If bugs are found, they'll be fixed. Some new features, however, may only appear in Hydra. If you want them, you'll need to switch.

    One last point. Amidst all the discussion of MAY or CAN versus WILL, everyone seems to have missed one other word: NEW...

     
  16. May 14, 2018 #56 of 146
    TiVo_Ted

    TiVo_Ted Well-Known Member

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    Re-posting from a similar thread:

    For grins, I went back and looked at our service agreement from 02/06/2002:
    "Changes to TiVo Service. TiVo may, at its discretion, from time to time change, add or remove features of the TiVo Service or change the terms and conditions of this agreement. Such changes shall be effective upon notification by TiVo. You are responsible for viewing any new terms and if you are dissatisfied with any such changes to the TiVo Service or this agreement, you may immediately cancel your subscription as provided in the "Termination of Service" paragraph below. TiVo also reserves the right to discontinue the TiVo Service altogether at any time in its discretion."

    And, to save you the time, here was the PLS definition at the time:
    "Definition of Lifetime Service. Subject to the terms of this agreement, if you paid a Lifetime Service fee for your Recorder ("Product Lifetime Service"), you will not incur any additional charges to receive the basic TiVo Service during the lifetime of that Recorder, even if you give it to a friend or family member. The TiVo Service will be provided only to that particular Recorder and therefore, cannot be transferred to any other Recorders you may purchase."

    "Using the TiVo Service. You may access and use the TiVo Service only with a product authorized to receive the TiVo Service and you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify the authorized product."

    I don't believe that these recent updates/clarifications have changed our policies nearly as much as people are suggesting.
     
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  17. May 14, 2018 #57 of 146
    chiguy50

    chiguy50 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, Ted!:)

     
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  18. May 14, 2018 #58 of 146
    Charles R

    Charles R Well-Known Member

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    My take in plain English... if you have Lifetime we won't charge you any additional fees for as long as we continue to offer the service.
     
  19. May 14, 2018 #59 of 146
    GaryD9

    GaryD9 Member

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    I don't know if that's a valid assumption. There are comments in these forums stating that TE4 has large data differences from TE3. That, apparently, is the reason TE4 can't be downgraded to TE3 without a clear/delete everything.

    If maintaining the older data structures becomes expensive, it's conceivable that TiVo might drop future development/maintenance for it. Speaking as a software developer who is often subject to the whims of project managers, I've frequently seen "management" deciding that supporting an older version isn't worth the cost and that forcing users to upgrade for continued support is a more economically viable path... even if that means giving the users the upgrade for free. In this case, the "upgrade" is already free.

    I'm not saying that this will happen with TiVo's TE3. TiVo has, in the past, had a pretty good track record in regards to older hardware and software support. Hopefully, they'll continue that tradition. However, I think it'd be foolish to bet any money on that.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
  20. May 14, 2018 #60 of 146
    ah30k

    ah30k Well-Known Member

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    Look at the company's history in this regard... The only end-of-life action they took was for the S1 and that was the direct fallout from the metadata server change from Gracenote to Rovi**. In order to keep the S1 going TiVo would have had to exert lots of energy to make code changes. This was clearly a case where exerting the energy wasn't a viable option for the company. Given the low numbers, they chose to EoL and, while not obligated, tossed in a financial bone to impacted users.

    It wasn't a case of just general low impact maintenance. It would have needed a significant coding effort to make the migration.

    ** Please lets not make this a rant about meta data
     
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