PSA: TiVo Changes - May 2018 User Agreement & Privacy Policy Update - May 2018

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by mmf01, May 12, 2018.

  1. May 13, 2018 #21 of 146
    HerronScott

    HerronScott Well-Known Member

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    That says nothing about transferring a TiVo to another user (along with the LTS/AI that's associated with it).

    (c) has always been in the user agreement so no change there with this update. They've always only allowed LTS/AI to another TiVo only under warranty service (no charge) or in some cases with repair service by TiVo (basically replacement) with a transfer fee (excluding the special deals with purchase of new hardware that are very infrequent). I don't think there is a guarantee on the repair/replacement service though.

    Scott
     
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  2. May 13, 2018 #22 of 146
    TKnight206

    TKnight206 Active Member

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    Maybe we should get TiVo_Ted to readdress this issue for our own comfort.

    I enjoy Encore. Sometimes good is good enough, and if people like Hydra, that's good for them. I hope both remain options for many years to come.
     
  3. May 13, 2018 #23 of 146
    Barnstormer

    Barnstormer Member

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    As I read the new TOS the LifeTime service is good until the box no longer works, or Tivo decides it's no longer worth life time service through the avenue of non-support. That is not what I understood when I bought the Lifetime service.

    It must be nice to be able to change a contract, and not have to worry that the other people who signed have to agree to the changes. (Using the Tivo after a certain date is not agreeing, IMHO).

    Why not just sell a 5 year Guide Service and then we at least know what we are buying. Of course, given the current way of thinking, I suppose that later they could just change the TOS to say all 5 year plans are now three year plans. Or all 5 year plans expire on 12/31/19 even if the five years are not up.

    IOW, the contract with Tivo/Rovi is not worth much.

    Trust - Hard to Earn, Easy to Lose.
     
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  4. May 13, 2018 #24 of 146
    just4tivo

    just4tivo Active Member

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    Consumer apathy has allowed companies to mutate their business models to where the customer exists for the convenience of the company and that is simply the reality of the way things are today.

    In many areas we have to choose the lesser of the evils instead of the best(?) choice for our needs. We are at the mercy of what is best for the company with less thought being given to the cost of customer acquisition or churn and more to short term profit or pumping up the company value in hopes of being bought out.

    The only power we have as consumers is to VOTE WITH OUR WALLETS and until we do (in volume) we have to accept what these companies will allow us to have and like it...
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  5. May 13, 2018 #25 of 146
    Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. But it's just that, not much in the way of equivalent options here . . . . Just need to hope for the best. :(
     
  6. May 13, 2018 #26 of 146
    sfhub

    sfhub Well-Known Member

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    So the message I received is if you continue using you agree to the new terms. Usually folks give you 30 days to review ToS changes, but putting that aside, what if you don't agree to the new terms?

    Whenever a previous cell phone company used to change our ToS (or modify the "surcharges" even by a little) that was an opportunity to exit contract commitments with no penalty (24-mo phone ETF), since the cell phone company unilaterally changed the contract.

    I don't know how many are on annual subscriptions, but you should be able to get out of your commitment if you don't agree to the new terms and a obvious pro-ration period is already built-in. It may take some arguing though. Perhaps you've soured on TiVo and the ToS change was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

    With lifetime you'd have to go more out of the box because you'd have to argue some pro-ration period that isn't as obvious (or full return) of service to get any benefit.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  7. May 13, 2018 #27 of 146
    Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    If you want to continue with your quality DVR, there really aren't any options . . . .
     
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  8. May 13, 2018 #28 of 146
    stile99

    stile99 Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say the line is new. What is new is the situation, so there most certainly is indeed something to discuss. The situation is now there is a new version of the software, one that could be called controversial in the least, a version that TiVo has said they currently have no plans to force on people. But (as noted), there is absolutely nothing stopping them. And if they do change their minds, as explicitly stated, they can do so with no warning. People who have deliberately rejected Hydra could wake up to it tomorrow. They can uninstall it again, only to wake up the next day and it's back.

    Like you said, I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually change their minds. I would be surprised if they don't, quite frankly. And that's really the point. They can say, today, that there are no immediate plans to do so, and that's probably true in fact. But the bottom line is you have already agreed to have it thrust upon you at any time with no notice.
     
  9. May 13, 2018 #29 of 146
    just4tivo

    just4tivo Active Member

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    Mike, with respect, HOPE got us into the predicament we're in now.
     
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  10. May 13, 2018 #30 of 146
    Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    Well, unless you want to develop a competing product on Kickstarter or Indiegogo, or have Congress and the president nationalize TiVo ;) , I'm afraid that I can't really think of much of an alternative . . . . Sigh, capitalism.
     
  11. May 13, 2018 #31 of 146
    TiVo_Ted

    TiVo_Ted Well-Known Member

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    It seems like you guys are doing a good job discussing this topic. But, I'll weigh in anyway. Just because our user agreement states that we *can* do something, doesn't automatically mean that we *will* do something. When we have made major changes in the past, it has always been for what we believe to be justifiable business reasons. The EOL of Series 1 devices is a good example. They were so old and limited, it became impractical for us to support them any longer. And, our active Series 1 customer base had declined to very small numbers at that point.

    Series 2 and Series 3 devices are still working fine, and with the exception of the dial-up network they do not present us with any major challenges. For all of the sky-is-falling concern around LS/PLS/AIP, there are still many S2/S3 customers paying monthly and even annual. While we would certainly love for these customers to upgrade to newer devices to get access to our latest features and functionality, it wouldn't make business sense to turn off a large number of paying customers.

    And, @TKnight206, I will reiterate to you for at least the 4th time that there is no reason why we would require an TE3/Encore customer to upgrade to TE4/Hydra. We will likely push future bug fix releases onto your box, but that is something we have always done. Sometimes this is because there is something in the release that we feel is important for you to have (time change fixes, etc.), and sometimes it's because we want as many people on the same release as possible in order to give you the best support we can.
     
  12. May 13, 2018 #32 of 146
    Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Ted. It's good to hear the word from the mouth, rather than guessing at the other end (or something like that). ;) And, of course, you understand the concerns--I used to shop at this place called Radio Shack, for my Polaroid camera film cartridges . . . .

    And so what you're really saying, in part, is, people should get their friends to go out and buy Series 2 and 3 TiVo boxes and pay for on-going subscriptions, to keep that revenue stream live and the product lines positive on the balance sheet . . . . :)
     
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  13. May 13, 2018 #33 of 146
    stile99

    stile99 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the clarification, Ted. For further clarification on my end, my intent wasn't to say that TiVo WILL force Hydra, just that they CAN (pretty much what you said, but coming from the other direction). The language is there, but that doesn't mean that is exactly what will happen. If/when/if Hydra is forced, I imagine it will be in the future, after having gone through several more iterations (again, the one we're on now should have been the first one (IMO), looking forward to building on that) and hopefully some removed features returned, as well as maybe a new (folders) toy or two (folders) added in along (folders) the way. And, as you note, with more notice than is legally required.

    Also, thanks for the reassurance that bug fixes/minor updates will still happen. I'm specifically thinking of the albatross that is Daylight Saving Time. At least two states were muttering a couple months ago about eliminating it, and I'm sure there will be more muttering next time it rolls around, so from the bottom of my heart, thank you for explicitly mentioning time change fixes.
     
  14. May 13, 2018 #34 of 146
    ah30k

    ah30k Well-Known Member

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    Practically speaking, this is no change at all because we've already seen TiVo EOL the S1 so the precedent is set that the company can do it. We can spend a few hundred posts here talking about it but it really is a big nothing burger.
     
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  15. May 13, 2018 #35 of 146
    just4tivo

    just4tivo Active Member

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    As always your insight is appreciated and valuable.

    That said, too often in today's business world (not limited to TiVo in any respect) the words CAN and WILL are seen by companies as interchangeable and decisions made with respect to what "we believe to be justifiable business reasons" are too often not to the benefit of the customers and THAT is what we fear.

    I've been with TiVo for over 3 years and have been mostly satisfied. Still have stupid guide/channel problems that TS can't seem to grasp and rarely resolves but the hardware has been reliable and you're still the best OTA solution.

    I wish your marketing people would realize that there is a considerable customer base who wants to move to OTA (with and without supplemental streaming) and that TiVo should use its OTA experience, established market footprint, and name recognition to embrace that market rather than just being one of the many solutions.

    Not everyone has/wants a cell phone and there are lots of people out there with land lines and that is a continuing revenue stream.
     
  16. May 13, 2018 #36 of 146
    Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    Well, yes, the company did it before, but offered $ compensation; and it's unclear that TiVo had a legal right to stop providing service for Lifetime customers. With the TOS change, matters likely would be otherwise, as least for new Lifetime customers and according to the new TOS terms.

    Also, with all due respect, it wasn't a nothing burger to some people who were adversely affected, some of whom posted here and pressed cases with TiVo, to get some form of satisfaction.
     
  17. May 14, 2018 #37 of 146
    TKnight206

    TKnight206 Active Member

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    I'd like to see a guarantee that the service will be good for 10 years with a proration for falling short. Although, I'd settle for the option to transfer to a new device for free with the only cost being the box itself, provided we're given both options: a proration or a free transfer. Something not unlike Mattress: 25 Year Limited Warranty

    As an example, if I pay $550 for the All-In on any device in 2018 and TiVo decides to no longer support my device in say 2025, I'd hope for a 30% refund ($165 refund) or permission to transfer my All-In to a new device that I pay for ($0 transfer fee plus cost of new equipment).

    10 years is just an example. I don't know what's reasonable.

    As for working equipment that has connected at least once within the last six months, I'd say a prorated credit to be used on a new device would be fair. If it's reasonable to expect the device to last 10 years, and the device is EOL, then having a credit to buy a new device equal to the remaining years left would be fair.
    As an example, if someone buys a 1TB Bolt for $300 and it has an activation date in 2017, and TiVo decides to EOL in 2024, then a credit of 30% ($90) toward the purchase of a new box would be fair in my opinion. This is separate from the All-In subscription.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
  18. May 14, 2018 #38 of 146
    Sparky1234

    Sparky1234 Well-Known Member

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    I expressed my concerns about Rovi business tactics in this forum about a year ago. I postponed adding another Bolt+ to my line up and I an now very glad I waited.

    The future of TV is streaming and the consumer will pay much more. Free OTA TV will be left with a test pattern then nothing.
     
  19. May 14, 2018 #39 of 146
    davezatz

    davezatz Funkadelic

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    Thanks Ted!
     
  20. May 14, 2018 #40 of 146
    ah30k

    ah30k Well-Known Member

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    The news was a nothing burger, not the decision to stop supporting a specific box.

    It isn't murky at all. TiVo has the right. Armchair legal analysis here won't change that.
     

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