Program Guide vs OTA digital channel mappings on Feb 17

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by markens, Jan 6, 2009.

  1. lew

    lew Well-Known Member

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    The government converter voucher program is out of money. I'll speculate at least some of the voucher recipients didn't really need them but got them so they could sell an almost free box on ebay.

    The proposed delay is only long enough to solve the voucher funding problem. My guess the case won't be strong enough for a court set aside the delay prior to the expiration of said delay.
     
  2. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    However, the problems with the coupon program has nothing to do with the government effectively acting in bad faith with respect to its agreements and representations to the companies that won the spectrum auctions. So why do you feel the case against the government, for acting in bad faith, "won't be strong enough".
     
  3. lew

    lew Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the arguments will be strong enough to get an injunction blocking any delay. I don't think they'll be time for a "regular" trial prior to the end of the delay. A court has to decide if the legislature has the legal authority to change the rules.

    Given the economic situation, and the status of the voucher program, some people may not be setup in time. A change in conditions that requires a change in policy isn't necessarily bad faith.

    I agree the companies that won the auctions might have a case, might get some money back "damages". BUT I don't the case is strong enough to get a TRO.
     
  4. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    The argument against the delay needs only be stronger than the argument for the delay, which is remarkably weak. Until politics prevails, there should be no problem presenting a stronger argument against the delay than for it.

    The economic situation has no bearing on anything. The coupon program has been operating for a while now. There is no excuse for waiting for the last minute, so no justification for using the coupon situation as a rationale for the delay.

    This change in conditions does not warrant interfering with fulfillment of the government's obligations regarding the reallocation of spectrum.

    I don't see the need for a TRO; I would expect a federal judge simply to put aside the delay, categorically.
     
  5. lew

    lew Well-Known Member

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    Of course politics would be the reason for any delay I don't think there is any reason to believe the courts would initiate any delay.

    The economy has changed dramatically in the last few months. Some voters with older sets may have been planning in buying a new TV set but can no longer afford to do so. Some voters may be dropping cable in favor of OTA. Congress may not be interested in hearing from voters who are no longer able to view TV broadcast over the public air.

    I don't think the courts would interfere if Congress (and the President) says it's in the public interest for an additional delay.

    I think the courts will let Congress decide if the current economic (and voucher) situation is sufficient justification for a delay. I understand you don't think there is sufficient justification but our opinion means very little.

    How much compensation, if any, the companies are entitled to receive due to the delay is a different question.

    A federal court wouldn't be categorically putting aside an FCC delay. The court would be declaring a new law unconstitutional. I don't see that happening overnight.


     
  6. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    It isn't a matter of the courts initiating the delay, but rather politics playing a role in what judges decide with regard to putting the delay aside, because it constitutes bad faith on the part of the nation.

    The economy still has nothing to do with this. It is 40 days from the transition. The economy has been bad for a lot long, and indeed has been worse than it is today.

    The whole purpose of the courts is to intervene when the Congress and the President do something that constitutes bad faith on the part of the nation.

    The courts routinely put new laws aside the day after they are signed into law. That's not remarkable.
     
  7. lew

    lew Well-Known Member

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    It takes more then "bad faith" to declare a federal law unconstitutional.

    I don't have the facts to know if a delay is warranted. I don't know how many OTA customers don't have the proper equipment. I don't know the reason(s) they don't.. I don't know what a delay would accomplish. Government gets to decide how to balance the issues. Time will tell how Congress will evaluate the competing interests and if the courts will back the right of congress.

    You have "issues" when posters disagree with corporate decisions. You have "issues" when posters think "their facts" are more accurate then research done by a company. In this case the government gets to make the decision.
     
  8. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    No one has talked about anything being unconstitutional. There are other bases on which the federal judiciary sets aside laws.

    Even radical Rep. Markey (D-MA) is saying, now, not to delay the transition (but rather address his concerns some other way).

    I have "issues" with you missing the point of my perspective. Beyond that, you've inadvertently stumbled over the critical difference, and perhaps didn't realize you were doing so: The government doesn't get to unilaterally make a decision to change the terms of a written agreement it has signed with a set of companies. It has to live up to its side of the agreement, as much as it expected the companies to live up to their side of the agreement. You have seen me say many times that companies should be expected to only deliver what they explicitly promise -- well the government explicitly promised -- in writing!!! -- that these companies would be granted use of specific portions of RF spectrum by a certain date. That's exactly what I always say... explicit promises must be complied with. And that's why the government should not be allowed to weasel its way out of the February 17 date.
     
  9. lew

    lew Well-Known Member

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    Contracts can be modified for a variety of reasons. Bankruptcy courts can void many contracts. Real Estate closing dates can be extended, in some cases unilaterally. In much of the country it takes months to evict a non-paying tenant.

    I suspect a short delay (at least 30 days, maybe up to 6 months), per a law, wouldn't be reversed by the courts.

    I don't know how many people are affected. How much $$$ would be required to provide enough vouchers. I'd hope congress wouldn't pass any legislation, unless a delay is the best way to solve the issues.
     
  10. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    So if you sign a contract for two years of Comcast service for $99 per month for the Triple Play, should Comcast be allowed to modify the contract, because their costs have gone up, to say, $139 per month?

    Your position on this is indefensible.

    There is no bankruptcy here.

    As per the tenets of the agreement, not contrary to them.

    There is almost surely enough money. Rather, there is a law in place that prevents issuing new coupons associated with that money until the old coupons that money is associated with expires.
     
  11. CharlesH

    CharlesH Member

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    Why doesn't Congress just appropriate the additional $$million required to fund the converters vouchers? It would seem like nothing compared to the $$billion in the proposed economic recovery program.
     
  12. kb7oeb

    kb7oeb Member

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    I am hopeful but not confident that Tivo will have the data ready in time. They seem very stubborn on supporting OTA users and so far for me have refused to fix OTA listings with incorrect digital frequencies.
     
  13. aus1ander

    aus1ander New Member

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    I'm surprised we haven't heard from TiVoPony or TiVoStephen regarding this issue, as I can imagine this being a big problem come mid-February if its true that the THD/S3 does not use PSIP for channel mapping. I have two stations changing frequencies on 2/18, ABC and NBC, so I hope we hear from someone at TiVo soon.
     
  14. MJRChico

    MJRChico New Member

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    Can we please get back to the Frequency/ Channel OTA Program guide issue, This post was not about congress. I just spent a while on the Phone with TIVO, They said they would look into my issue with the guide, They said I was the first person in my area to complain about it, it would go on their todo list.

    It did seem not to be in their knowledge base of quick answers, which is troublesome, considering what they are about to face.

    Thanks.
     
  15. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    You may find that restricting the subject of the thread may result in very few if any posts. ;)

    I think you hit on why that is the case, and you're right, it is troublesome, considering what they are about to face. Perhaps they're the ones prompting Podesta to delay the transition. LOL!
     
  16. visionary

    visionary HAVE BRAIN WILL USE!

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    Does anyone know, will guide data for my S1 just stop on Feb 17? If so looks like Tivo would be notifying everyone by now??? I know cable and sat will continue, but its still a big deal. Does the S1 accept the OTA converter boxes? I don't want to run guided setup till I know. All I read about is S2.

    I am ready to rescan on my S3, but what is talked about here never occurred to me before, that the guide will go to the wrong channel. Tivo does need to make a statement, for sure.
     
  17. bicker

    bicker bUU

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  18. pilotbob

    pilotbob New Member

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    It seems to me that the problem is more easily solved by automatically extending all the expire dates on currently issued vouchers. Many people ordered vouchers early and they expired before they could be used, boxes weren't available yet.

    The rules also say you can't order again if you didn't use them. So, they should also change this rule and allow people that didn't use their issued vouchers to re-request them in case they discarded or lost the ones they were originally issued.

    Of course, no matter what they do, there are going to be people that won't do anything until the magic box isn't working. Seriously, people talk about the loss of a TV signal or a channel or two as if these people wouldn't have food, water or shelter. It's just TV people. Perhaps Barnes and Nobel should have a Digital TV Transition sale. Get 50% off any one book if you bring your expired DTV voucher in. This will give you something to do when you can watch your soap.

    BOb
     
  19. sgndave

    sgndave Member

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    I'm sure that this little tidbit won't surprise anyone on this forum, but Tivo's website (support section) is telling S3/HD owners that they don't need to do anything as a result of the transition, and that their boxes will continue to work. Just to add to the confusion when it happens...


    http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/technicalsupport/compatibilityhelp/Digital_antenna_support.html

     
  20. Dancar

    Dancar Member

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    Don't delay the conversion. It has been advertised heavily for at least six months, so there is no excuse for not being ready. And no one ever died because their TV watching was interrupted.
     

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