Program Guide vs OTA digital channel mappings on Feb 17

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by markens, Jan 6, 2009.

  1. OHSam2008

    OHSam2008 New Member

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    Nov 5, 2008

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    I don't know if this will help the situation here or not, but from what I've heard, once the transition happens, you will need to perform a new channel scan. This would hold true for tv's, digital converter boxes and TiVo units where OTA signals are received.

    For what it's worth, I plan on getting up early that day and rescanning both of my digital converter boxes and both of my TiVo's...just to be on the safe side. :)
     
  2. pilotbob

    pilotbob New Member

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    Sounds like a plan. Also, redoing guided setup might also be a good idea.

    Of course, all this is only an issue if you have a channel in your area that is changing its RF frequency on Feb 18th. If you don't then everything will just keep humming along.

    BOb

    (I think we have 1 channel that is doing that in my area)
     
  3. SCSIRAID

    SCSIRAID Active Member

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    Of the 8 OTA digital channels in Raleigh, only 3 are going back to their analog frequencies on Feb 18. 2 are staying where they currently are and the other 3 are going to new frequencies.

    Ill be doing a rescan on Wed morning.....

    :D
     
  4. markens

    markens Member

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    Apr 12, 2007
    My experience with this exact issue is that a channel scan does NOT override info the TiVo already has about the lineup. Specifically, my local 10.1 "full power" transmitter is on channel 35. I cannot receive that signal, although my TiVo has full program guide info for it and even knows it is on RF channel 35.

    When I do a channel scan, I find a translator for 10.1 which is broadcast from another location on RF channel 47. My TiVo does not do any mapping of this to the 10.1 that it does know about. Therefore, no program guide info for me for 10.1 in any useful fashion. It appears that, to the TiVo, these are two separate channels. This was confirmed to me by TiVo tech support. [They suggested a fix for this issue, not applicable to the discussion in this thread.]

    I'm using this information to extrapolate what I think will happen when the main RF frequencies change on Feb 17, absent any updates to "out of band" data TiVo uses. Sure, I'm going to rescan too after the transition. Hopefully it will work!

    BTW, several people are saying that the transition happens Weds morning Feb 18. An engineer of a local station told me specifically that the transition will happen "at midnight Feb 17 (Monday night/Tuesday morning)." At least for that station. So you might need to rescan a day earlier than you thought...
     
  5. pilotbob

    pilotbob New Member

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    Ah... ok. I have never been sure if Feb 17th was the LAST day of analog or the FIRST day of digital. I guess it is the later?

    BOb
     
  6. hagios

    hagios New Member

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    Unfortunately, I think that this will be a problem.

    Down here in New Orleans, the FOX affiliate made the transition early (I think it was Dec 22). They switched from digital frequency 29 to digital frequency 8 when they turned off the analog signal. Since they were making the transition early, they went way out of the way to make sure everyone was aware of the transition. TiVo SHOULD have been on the ball and should have been prepared to switch the guide data over to the new channel on the day of the transition.

    They still haven't switched the guide data over. So right now my TiVo has two 8-1s listed. The first is the old channel (frequency 29) that has guide data but obviously no signal. The second is the new one (frequency 8) with no guide data. Right now, if I want to TiVo anything on FOX, I have to look up the show, see what time is starts and ends and manually record. I called TiVo tech support about two weeks ago. They said they would put in for the change and it would take 5-7 days to process. Still waiting...

    So, if I were you, I would get on www.antennaweb.com, plug in your home address and see which of your channels will be moving to a new frequency. Call TiVo customer support and have them put in a request now. And be prepared to manually record shows on those channels...
     
  7. gastrof

    gastrof Hubcaps r in fashion

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    Potato and pen.
    That's www.antennaweb.org, actually.
     
  8. SCSIRAID

    SCSIRAID Active Member

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    Vero Beach, FL
    Have you tried a channel scan? I would bet that if you run a channel scan, that second copy of 8-1 would go away. If it doesnt, Id reboot and see if it does.
     
  9. SCSIRAID

    SCSIRAID Active Member

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    Vero Beach, FL
    Check this site....

    http://www.dtvtransition.org/

    If you take the calander and add the offset you will find that it is pointing to the transition happening as Tuesday night turns into Wednesday morning.

    Here is a clip...

    On February 18, 2009, broadcast television stations will stop analog broadcasting and complete the transition to digital broadcasting. If you don’t subscribe to cable or satellite services, you’ll need either a television set capable of receiving DTV programming, or a digital-to-analog converter box.
     
  10. puffdaddy

    puffdaddy Member

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    Mar 1, 2006
    This makes sense for tvs and digital converter boxes which get their channel information from PSIP, but is not necessary for Series 3 tivos.

    All tivo units receive their "EPG" in the form of two distinct types of slices, a Program Guide (PG*) slice and a Program Channel (PC*) slice. The former provides show information tied to specific channels. The latter contains a listing of all channels in a given area (the "Headend").

    When running guided setup for a Series 3 unit receiving OTA, no channel scan is done. Rather the appropriate PC* slice is downloaded and it contains the virtual channel numbers, frequency assignment, callsign, etc. for each channel in that viewer's zipcode (OTA slices are arranged by zipcode, but DBS is different). Then a PG* slice is loaded to provide the initial 24 hours of programming, with a larger PG* slice, downloaded thereafter, to provide the ~14 days of programming.

    Once the system has reached full programming, then a PG* slice is downloaded during the daily call (and the slice contains approximately one day's worth of show info unless calls have been missed), during the daily call a PC* slice may also be downloaded. The PC* slice is only needed when there has been a change to the lineup (new channel added, change in callsign, reassigned channel number), though this happens far less frequently with OTA Headends than with a DBS or Cable Headend.

    While the Program Guidedata is arranged by Unix Time, I'm fairly sure that the Program Channels are not. Rather, tivos database simply contains the most current version of a Headend's Program Channels, and rubbishes the old ones. Thus, come transition time, I would expect that a new PC* slice would be downloaded during the daily call, and it would contain any updated frequency assignments. So, there might be some missed recordings during any period of incorrect frequencies (dependent upon the unit's daily call, when the broadcasters actually affect the change, etc).

    All this being the case, there's no need to repeat Guided Setup or the channel scan (notwithstanding the uncommon case where you have scanned channels which are changing frequency). The previous poster who commented that scanned channels are handled separately is correct. Channel scanning resulting in an additional signal source, a "Discovered" one that is not tied to any Headend. The Tivo also avoids duplicates by checking to ensure that discovered channels don't already exist in the OTA (or Cable) Headend.

    All of this is nothing new (well, the "dynamic" lineups to accommodate channel updates was added in software version 1.3 and converted from *tcl to c++/tivoapp in version 2.x, but that probably doesn't count as new ;)), though it was much more readily accessible when the tivo boxes were much more open (whereas now they are a black box for most).

    I'll comment that the most significant point of all of this is that those with Series 2 units using digital converter boxes will need to rerun a channel scan on the converter box after the transition. I'm guessing that tivo will send some sort of special message to alert such users to this (perhaps they are even savvy enough to selectively send this message based upon whether or not there were frequency changes in the Headend?).
     
  11. markens

    markens Member

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    Apr 12, 2007
    Thanks for the very informative post. This is exactly the information I was looking for! I'm now pretty confident that things will work relatively smoothly for my S3 through the transition, since receiving a PC* slice seems pretty easy for all TiVos to do in a timely manner.
     
  12. hagios

    hagios New Member

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    Mar 11, 2008
    The problem isn't the second (old) 8-1. The problem is that the correct (new) 8-1 doesn't have any guide data. I leave the old one in my channel list because it has guide data attached. That way I can easily see what I want to TiVo so that I can manual record on the correct 8-1.

    I have tried channel scan, rerunning the guided setup and rebooting. It won't matter until TiVo moves the guide data over to the correct frequency. Once TiVo corrects the issue on their end, it should just correct itself with a daily update and I'll just get a message that says that a new channel was added to my lineup.
     
  13. SCSIRAID

    SCSIRAID Active Member

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    That pretty much confirms what puffdaddy said.... Im somewhat surprised that channel scan isnt the method used to get the virtual to physical mapping..... but I cant argue with the facts :D

    It would seem that TiVo/Tribune have their work cut out for them getting ready for this transition and they have already missed your 8-1 transition. I would imagine a LOT of people will be forcing connections in the wee hours Wednesday morning. :)
     
  14. MJRChico

    MJRChico New Member

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    Jan 9, 2009
    I live in an area that already converted, Chico/Redding CA. For both 30.1 and 24.1 the TIVO downloaded program info does not fill in the program guide on the frequency that receives the signal. If I go to antenna strength and select 24.1, freq 24, I get the feed at 100%. but from the program guide, tivo can't find the signal, I think it's because its trying to find the signal at 24.1 freq 36 where there is no feed. Why do they have two frequencies? or is it just the tivo database filling in the wrong frequency?

    From my experience, Do NOT count on any OTA recordings working after the transition for a while.

    Any Advice?
     
  15. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    Even if there was something TiVo did do/could do to address the transition date, how are they supposed to account for Congress thinking about messing with the date? Put a button on Pelosi's desk?
     
  16. SCSIRAID

    SCSIRAID Active Member

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    Its a bit late for Congress to be even considering delaying the transition. Many stations are already on half power doing transmitter updates on half the transmitter and/or on auxilliary antennas while changing out their main antennas. Contracts are already in place to update the 'other' half of transmitters as auxilliarys. What a mess a delay would be....
     
  17. SCSIRAID

    SCSIRAID Active Member

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    Vero Beach, FL

    Maybe she has an 'easy' button.... :)
     
  18. pilotbob

    pilotbob New Member

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    Agreed... extending the date would be monumentally stupid first move that Obama could make. Also, my assumption is many channels would just make the switch over anyway. I am very disappointing to hear that they are recommending this to congress.

    BOb
     
  19. SCSIRAID

    SCSIRAID Active Member

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    They cant necessarily just 'make the switch' anyway since their post transition digital channel may already be occupied or present an interference situation to an existing analog channel that a mandated delay wouldnt allow to go off the air.... If congress orders a delay to the transition, the FCC would likely have to pull the post transition licenses.... It would be a major league mess if the transition is delayed.
     
  20. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    Perhaps a federal judge can be convinced to set-aside the delay, if it actually passes Congress, as it would constitute the government effectively acting in bad faith.
     

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